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Winchester 220 Swift Brass

I purchased 150 pieces of Winchester brass for my 220 Swift, as my old brass was starting to split case necks and I had more than gotten my money's worth from them. So, I loaded up 25 rounds without FL sizing them and went to the range. ( I know, I should have.) At the range, 6 of the 25 would not chamber in my Savage Model 12.

When I got home, I checked the shoulder dimension with my Hornady comparator and sure enough, the shoulders were about 6-10 thousandths longer than my fired brass. So, I figured I would bump them back. Boy, did I get a surprise. First, my Lee die would not push the shoulder back to the desired length, so I got out my RCBS die. After lubing up the case, it would not fully reach the case holder no matter how hard I pushed. The case also got quite stuck.

After getting the case out and ruining the rim, I got out my 0-1" mike and measured the head diameter of the case. It was several thousandths larger in diameter than all of my successfully fired cases. No wonder they weren't full length sized. Next, I got out all the new brass and started checking it all. All the long ones had over sized heads. I'll bet 1/3 of them are rejects.

Now, I know I bought cheap brass but this is ridiculous. It's the last Winchester brass I'll buy. Anyone else have this problem?
 
Yes. New unfired brass. The section near the head is 2-3 thousandths thicker than spec and solid brass can't be compressed by the die. It's just bad, out of spec brass.
 
Call the company, I had a similar issue and they gave me many pieces of brass, they wanted the lot no. and to return them.
 
Yes. New unfired brass. The section near the head is 2-3 thousandths thicker than spec and solid brass can't be compressed by the die. It's just bad, out of spec brass.


After getting the case out and ruining the rim, I got out my 0-1" mike and measured the head diameter of the case. It was several thousandths larger in diameter than all of my successfully fired cases. No wonder they weren't full length sized. Next, I got out all the new brass and started checking it all. All the long ones had over sized heads. I'll bet 1/3 of them are rejects.

Cases are longer from the shoulder to the cases head by .007" than your fired cases? That is possible, your chamber could be a short chamber, I have chambers that are go-gage length by design the cases that fit that chamber are considered to be minimum length or full length sized. And then there are those large case heads. My shell holder has a deck height of .125" meaning there is no way to sized the case head below .125" plus the radius at the opening of the die.

I do not know what press your are using, I do not know if it is capable of sizing a case to minimum length without flexing, there are times my cases have more resistance to sizing than a press can overcome. Because I am not limited to one press I pick another press. I have one press that can size two cases at the same time.

F. Guffey
 
When a case refuses t be sized I measure the case head thickness from the cup above the web to the case head. I have cases with .260" thick case heads and I have cases with case heads that are .200" thick from the cup above the web to the case head. When it comes to sizing and difficulty the thin case heads are the easiest, when it come to safety the thick case heads are the safest.

F. Guffey
 
I put all the force I'm willing to put on both a Lee Single stage and a Rockchucker. These are too big at the base, where it's incompressible. It's $25 worth of brass. Not worth my time and trouble to mess with it. I just won't buy Winchester brass again. Plus, I don't want to screw up my die or rifle trying to make chicken salad out of chicken doo.
 
What spec do your Swift heads measure to....the actual measurement?
 
Just a thought: Instead of throwing in the towel and publicly trashing the company, why not give them a chance to make good? It may be only $25 worth of brass but you'll never know what Winchester might offer. I suspect they'd prefer to regain a happy customer rather than be pistol whipped on the web without being given an opportunity to respond.

Again. Just a thought.
 
I put all the force I'm willing to put on both a Lee Single stage and a Rockchucker. These are too big at the base, where it's incompressible. It's $25 worth of brass. Not worth my time and trouble to mess with it. I just won't buy Winchester brass again. Plus, I don't want to screw up my die or rifle trying to make chicken salad out of chicken doo.
Usually Winchester brass is pretty good. I'd call them.
 
Tried to play nice. Dug through the garbage and picked out the 41 pieces that don't work. Went to Winchester site to get a phone number. No phone number. Finally found the submit a claim page. Filled out all required fields and the dang thing won't take my claim. Not impressed with their customer service.

I called Duck Creek Sporting Goods (original vendor) and he is sending me some more.
 
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Tried to play nice. Dug through the garbage and picked out the 41 pieces that don't work. Went to Winchester site to get a phone number. No phone number. Finally found the submit a claim page. Filled out all required fields and the dang thing won't take my claim. Not impressed with their customer service.

I called Duck Creek Sporting Goods (original vendor) and he is sending me some more.
They have a phone number. (314) 480-1400
 
Where did you find that?
I also have had the same problem. But I had purchased a REDDING 3 die set with a body die for this cartridge. This body die allowed me to full size the LOADED cartridge without pulling the bullet and dumping the powder. I was worried at first, but it works for me. Quick and easy fix. I now own 4 different body dies
 
1.

I also have had the same problem. But I had purchased a REDDING 3 die set with a body die for this cartridge. This body die allowed me to full size the LOADED cartridge without pulling the bullet and dumping the powder. I was worried at first, but it works for me. Quick and easy fix. I now own 4 different body dies.


I am not under the illusion a case can be sized with a body die, I called Redding and asked them how can they do that because I can not size a case without case body support and I can not shorten the length of the case from the shoulder to the case head without case body support. And then I explained I can not size a case with a die that does not contact the shoulder of the case.


MEANING! There is no such die as a body die. If you are sizing cases with a bushing die you are creating a ‘donut’ at the shoulder/neck juncture. I know; only reloaders from California require theory when forming donuts out of bad habits.


F. Guffey
 
From fguffy:
"I am not under the illusion a case can be sized with a body die, I called Redding and asked them how can they do that because I can not size a case without case body support and I can not shorten the length of the case from the shoulder to the case head without case body support. And then I explained I can not size a case with a die that does not contact the shoulder of the case."

Just out of idle curiosity, what was REDDING's response to your inquiry?
 
I am not under the illusion a case can be sized with a body die, I called Redding and asked them how can they do that because I can not size a case without case body support and I can not shorten the length of the case from the shoulder to the case head without case body support. And then I explained I can not size a case with a die that does not contact the shoulder of the case.


MEANING! There is no such die as a body die...
... If you are sizing cases with a bushing die you are creating a ‘donut’ at the shoulder/neck juncture. I know; only reloaders from California require theory when forming donuts out of bad habits.
F. Guffey

"There is no such die as a body die."


I'll bet that Redding will be surprised to find that out - they have sold 10's of thousands of them (4 to me) and they work just fine - a body die is exactly the same as a FL die, except the neck section is over sized so it does not size the neck - they work well when FL sizing loaded ammunition.

"If you are sizing cases with a bushing die you are creating a ‘donut’ at the shoulder/neck juncture."

A donut is a small ring of thicker brass at the base of the neck, just under the shoulder/neck junction, and it is formed when the neck is outside turned.
When a case with a donut is FL sized, the donut shows up as a tiny ring of brass protruding into the neck space, like a constricting ridge, and is easy to see with a light, or feel with the tip of a straightened paper clip.
If it interferes with bullet seating, it must be cut out with a tool or inside neck reamer. If it does not interfere with bullet seating, it can be ignored.

It is NOT formed by partially sizing the neck, or by sizing with a bushing die.
 
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John Russell, the forum member said he sized loaded rounds with a body die, if I had a body die it would not touch the shoulder because the shoulder is not part of the body, my cases have a die body, shoulder and neck and then there is that part of the case that protrudes from the die, that part is referred to as being the case head. And then there are impressionable reloaders, the manufacturer claims the die is a body die; problem, all of my sizing dies are body dies with the ability to size the case body and shoulder meaning my dies can control the length of the case from the shoulder to the case head.


And no I did not say my dies move the shoulder back as in ‘bump back’ because I know that is impossible but I am not an impressionable reloader. And then there is the new fad; reloaders sizing loaded ammo without the bushing and thinking they are sizing the body of the case only. I have had the ability and dies to size loaded ammo long before the bushing die, I choose not to because I believe it is a bad habit. I believe the reloader should know if the case will allow the bolt to close before they seat a bullet.


F. Guffey
 
John Russell, the forum member said he sized loaded rounds with a body die, if I had a body die it would not touch the shoulder because the shoulder is not part of the body, my cases have a die body, shoulder and neck and then there is that part of the case that protrudes from the die, that part is referred to as being the case head. And then there are impressionable reloaders, the manufacturer claims the die is a body die; problem, all of my sizing dies are body dies with the ability to size the case body and shoulder meaning my dies can control the length of the case from the shoulder to the case head.

And no I did not say my dies move the shoulder back as in ‘bump back’ because I know that is impossible but I am not an impressionable reloader. And then there is the new fad; reloaders sizing loaded ammo without the bushing and thinking they are sizing the body of the case only. I have had the ability and dies to size loaded ammo long before the bushing die, I choose not to because I believe it is a bad habit. I believe the reloader should know if the case will allow the bolt to close before they seat a bullet.
F. Guffey

It appears that you have never owned or used a Redding Body die. If you had, you would know that it sizes the body and shoulder, just like an FL die.

In cartridge cases, just as in humans, the shoulder is considered as part of the body.

It is probably a good idea if you don't give advice on subjects that you don't know anything about, or dies that you have never used... like body dies and bump dies.
 
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