WIN 748 ball powder for .308 WIN reload

[DogPatch06]

Hi all,

Quick background then question:

I'm a new shooter, new reloader, and new forum member. I bought my first rifle and started reloading in May 2010 and since then I've competed in 4 Reduced Palma Matches at the South Bay Rod and Gun Club in Dulzura, CA and put 1967 rounds through my .308 to date. The match format allows F-class shooters to compete as well as service rifles, alongside the palmas. We're all prone at 300yrds with CMP rules applied. I sign in as an F-Class shooter and and we shoot using MR-63FC targets. So far it's a lot of fun and my best score is 441-17x out of my 1:11:25 twist REM700SS 5R. My load is 42.1gr varget in Lapua brass with CCIBR2s and 175gr SMKBTHP set at 2.806COAL averging 2504ft/sec. I use the Lee single stage press and hand tools.

Having recently purchased my second rifle in 556 I picked up an 8lb jug of WIN 748. I've read that it's good with a .308 depending on several factors given today's market and the shooter's requirements. Anyone have a comparable load with WIN 748? Thanks, Alex

 

[jonbearman]

Welcome to the forum. The first question I have is do you have any reloading manuals? If you dont,My suggestion is to buy 2 manuals,one being hornady and the other being sierra. You absolutely need these to check to see if a load offered here is safe for your rifle. Alot of fellas offer their pet loads developed for their particular rifle. It may work for a tight chambered match rifle,but could be catastrophic in your rifle and could cause severe damage or personal injury you may not walk away from. For safetys sake,start with a good up to date manual and use it as the bible to compare what the factory found safe in all rifles. 748 is a fine powder but you must remember to develop loads for hot weather(reduced) and loads for cooler temps. I hope this helps and if you have any questions feel free to pm me right here on the forum.

 

[DogPatch06]

Appreciate your concern for the safety of the new reloader. Your response made me think about my question in a contructive manner. Will be safe and repost soon.

 

[JaxCatm]

I second the hot weather loading of win 748. I live in the NorthWest and developed a 3-gun load in March for my AR. When August rolled around and temps were 50-60 degrees high plus chamber temps on a hot gun life got interesting. Maybe try H335 if you are looking for a powder that meters well. I didn't notice as much temp trouble with H335.

 

[Laurie]

The temperature sensitivity, and other issues, sees most .308 Win competition shooters use stick and in particular single-base stick powders. VarGet and H4895 for instance are widely recommended in this cartridge for very good reasons. It's not just maximum pressure / safety issues. If your load behaves inconsistently depending on season / weather, a nice load right on an accuracy node can be moved off giving a large increase in group size and MV extreme spreads. This isn't confined to ball powders, some stick types are similarly affected.

All ball / spherical types are double-base, and most suffer from the disadvantage that they must be more heavily coated with 'deterrents' to get the right burning rate than the commonly found stick types that employ a central hole. (As the outside surfaces of the kernels burn and reduce the available surface area / rate of gas production, the central hole sees burning from the inside out increasing the available surface area and gas production cancelling out the outside surface effects.) Ball powders can only see a reduction in kernel size as they burn down, so have a higher percentage on non-combustible chemicals which amongst other things often sees them produce more fouling, although R&D has reduced this issue somewhat.

One tip now that you have 8lb of W748 is to look at Hodgdon BL-C(2) data as well as that listed under the powder's own name. Both powders are different production lots of the same product / powder grade made by the former Olin Industries, now St. Marks Powder Co. plant in St. Marks Florida. There will be minor differences in performance, maybe 1gn difference in usable maximum charge weights in .308W, but that's purely down to lot performance issues.

Hodgdon doesn't list W748 data for the 175gn SMK in its online Reloading Center

http://data.hodgdon.com/main_menu.asp

but does list BL-C(2) and for some reason you usually find more data for this powder than the W748 version. It shows a starting load of 43gn / 2,517 fps / 39,200 CUP and maximum of 46.0gn / 2,706 fps / 50,300 CUP from a 24" barrel, Winchester case and Fed 210M. (2,706 fps is a good figure in this dataset, the highest MV from 13 Hodgdon / IMR / Win powders listed being 2,728 fps.)

Ball powders have some quirks it's worth knowing about. They often give best results at or near max loads and full pressures - and this can be an issue with the winter / summer load sensitivity. They can produce really heavy muzzle flash / blast - this pair certainly does - under some conditions. Handloaders often take fright when this happens and assume loads are too heavy, reducing them. Actually, they are signs of too LOW pressures and inefficient combustion so the answer is usually to keep on raising them. They can spike suddenly pressure-wise under some conditions - more likely in your wife's .223 than .308 but still to be borne in mind as you work loads up and get near recommended maximum levels. Some manuals recommend magnum primers as a matter of course (as ball powders are usually harder to ignite). Unless you're going to shoot in really cold conditions, Fed 210Ms will be fine, and in my experience of BL-C(2) over the years in .308 and similar size cartridges, magnum primers sometimes give unpredictable and undesirable results in summer conditions.

Personally, I wouldn't use 748/BL-C(2) in F Class, but you should find acceptable loads without too much trouble.

 

[wapiti25]

748 will work very good if you remember what has been said, all good advise. I found that 748 is cleaner than the Hodgdon line. I think this is because the H335, Ball c, Ball c2, H380, and H414 all started as military surpluse that Hodgdon bought from the gov't. 748 is at least the third generation of ball powder which Winchester produced and they made it cleaner. H335 was a 223 powder that had a lot of calcium carbide and fouled the M16 causing jams if not cleaned often. I live in the calif desert where we get wide temp swings from winter to summer and in winter 50 degrees from low to high. 748 is one of the best ball powders for the 308 and 223 with 55gr bullets. I have no experience with the heavyier bullets in the 223. 748 is good with the 168gr. Good shooting to you.

 

[habu]

morn alex,

you have received some outstanding advice with LAURIE being one of the best.

i can tell you from personel experience that once upon a time i started with 748 and experienced radical group/elev. changes depending on temp. and then came VARGET.

i and many others have NEVER LOOKED BACK!!

YOU LEARN TO PUT UP WITH METERING PROBLEMS, ETC. TO REAP THE GREAT REWARDS OF HODGDEN EXTREME POWDERS!!

who cares if hodgden is a bit dirtier than others - the next bullet down the tube will clean it out.

my best advice is sell the 748 and get a jug of varget and develope a load - you'll never go back. save yourself problems.

habu

 

[DogPatch06]

Thanks all for the advice and phenonmenal detail.
I plan to stay with Varget for my .308 and use WIN748 for my 556.

High winds and low headcount this morning at the South Bay Rod and Gun Club match. Missed high scoped rifle by 1 point with a 432/9x. I've shot better but I started with a clean bore and the winds challenged the experienced shooters as well.

I was talking to the match director about shooting at 600 and 800yrds and he recommended increasing my charge if I want to buck the wind better at 600 and 800.

So far I've developed 2 good loads at 300yrds. One is mag length and the other is close to the lands. The longer load is 43.0gr Varget with l175 SMKs seated 4 thousands off the lands measuring 2.899COAL in my rifle. It groups 1/4MOA at 300yrds just like the 42.1gr 2.806COAL load but I felt it was impracticle for the short distance. The longer range matches at Imperial Valley Gun Club are set to begin around October this year so I'll have some time to get data and report back.

Look forward to any comments or concerns,

Alex

 

[Laurie]

Alex,

if you're considering 800yd, I'd also suggest moving to a higher BC bullet. The 175gn SMK is a good accurate and easy to tune design, but is high drag compared to many more recently introduced designs. The 175gn Berger BT Long-Range is more efficient, and its 185gn BT L-R sibling is outstanding.

Using a lower BC model has hardly any effect at 300yd, starts to impart a disadvantage at 600 and will really lose you points at 800 and beyond in a changing wind. Another bullet to consider is Berger's new 175gn Tactical OTM which is designed for rifles like your Remy and will remain stable at long ranges when approaching or at the speed of sound - do a search in the Daily Bulletin section, there was a piece about them a few months ago. We haven't seen them here yet in the UK, but some US shooters are posting on this forum that they group really, really well.

 

[Alaska Bush Man]

I have good results with W748 @ 45.0 with 165gr in WW brass with WLR primers in 308 Win.