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Wilson vs ScrewIn Seater - Why is Wilson Supposedly Superior?

Boyd,

Thanks for your comment on my responses. I like to write, and am working on putting up a website in the near future.

My goal is best concentricity and am willing to acquire the best die and equipment to achieve that end. Given that the Redding FL is not the best tool for that, and that a new die will be required, may I ask what other die options are recommended?

Thank you.

Phil
 
If you are working with unturned necks, believe it or not, collet die, followed by body die. These days the collet die may need some tuning up, and you may need to polish down the mandrel (or order a smaller one from Lee) if you need more neck tension, but for factory chambers and unturned necks, I don't think that this combo can be beat. The other alternative that I like is a Forster FL die that has been honed out so that the expander still works, but just barely. Either approach should get you there.
 
Thanks. The process would then be for fired brass:

1) Use collet die (Lee?) to size neck.
2) Use body die to set shoulder back and size body.

What about the Redding bushing die? The Lee collet is certainly cheaper. Can the above process be used to reliably size brass for the AR-15? I don't see why it wouldn't, but want to avoid any problems.

I have a lathe and can make a new mandrel, or polish the existing one, depending on how the mandrel is made.

I am curious, is there any reason the collet and body die would not be suitable for turned necks?

Phil
 
If I'm reloading cases straight away I resize the necks with a lee collett then set the shoulders back with a bushing die with bushing removed (I do not have a body die).

If I need to prep cases then set them aside for reloading some days later (usually due to time constraints) then I set the shoulder back and do not touch the necks until I am ready to reload.

I find neck tension is more consistent if my cases are loaded straight after necks are resized.

Martin
 
The bushings are fine if the chamber neck is not too large, but with generous clearance, the lead in angle of a bushing does not seem to capture necks all that well. It has even been said that doing a two stage sizing with progressively smaller bushings gives better results in these situations. On the other hand, the collet die seems to handle these situations just fine since the neck is fully inside the collet before any sizing starts. Don't misunderstand me, I am not bad mouthing bushing dies, I am just saying that in certain situations there may be better ways to go.
 
No misunderstanding. Got what you said. I will probably order the Lee Collet and a Redding body die. Wanted to get a Forster, but they do not appear to sell body dies.

Phil
 
Phil3 said:
Thanks. The process would then be for fired brass:

1) Use collet die (Lee?) to size neck.
2) Use body die to set shoulder back and size body.

What about the Redding bushing die? The Lee collet is certainly cheaper. Can the above process be used to reliably size brass for the AR-15? I don't see why it wouldn't, but want to avoid any problems.

I have a lathe and can make a new mandrel, or polish the existing one, depending on how the mandrel is made.

I am curious, is there any reason the collet and body die would not be suitable for turned necks?

Phil

After reading a few threads a few months ago about the Lee Collet dies (LCD) on this forum, I ordered one and started using it for my AR-15 (RRA LAR-15 Varmint). Using Boyd's recommended method of using the collet die first then using a body die (Redding). I was amazed at how much less runout I was getting compared to using either a conventional full length (Redding) die and also a full length bushing die (Redding). I did some testing at the range with 3 sets of 5 rounds using each of the three methods above and overwhelmingly the groups were better using the LCD and Redding body die. I've since ordered LCD's and Redding body dies for a few other calibers that I load for.

The only thing that I found with my AR is that I was a little uncomfortable with how very little force was required to seat the bullets after using the LCD. I was only getting around 1 thou of neck tension. I ended up getting some very fine sand paper and honed the mandrel down by 1 thou to get a little more neck tension. Haven't made it back out to the range to test those, but the runout is still looking good so I assume they'll probably shoot well.

Now that I have my preferred method of sizing picked, I'm going to be doing some experimentation with seating dies to find what works best for me. I have a Redding competition seater as well as a Wilson w/ micrometer that I plan to compare.
 
About that expander.. I agree with Boyd': I like the Idea that the ID of the brass is kept rond/centric by using an expander rather than the OD of the brass.

That is just my personal experience.

I collet and then body (bump the soulder back without touching the neck) one caliber (an AR and a bolt. both .204 ruger)
I also use a honed FL dies set to give me the neck tension that I like, with a little bump (6.5-284 bolt gun).
I also F/L some calibers (AR in 6.5 Grendel).

Its all good, but I find that the collet-and-bump method (I fergit which I do firest, I'll have to check my notes...) suits me best, but everything is most pleasent if I start with good brass (that having iniform wall thickness about the entire perimiter of every case).

German Salaza has a good article about this out there somewhere, titled something like "neck then bump" or vices-versa... or something...
 
I use the Wilson-type. I get a Wilson seater blank and have my smith cut them with my reamer. That way, I know that I have the right dimensions in my seater.
 
I dont use expanders unless im prepping brand new brass with dinged up necks. Just me, im particular about doing what makes sense to me. When i use an expander i just use the floating expander on the inside of the necks then i remove the expander and Fl or neck size the entire case without the expander ball. I basically am only using redding and forster dies. My last few sets have been purely forser dies so i can have the necks honed. I know someone recomended years ago when i asked about reforming dies to use a seater for reforming since they are about .020 larger than the FL die. I know even the floating seater dies are roomy for your fl brass. I would definitely prefer dies made to fit. On factory chambers that are usually pushing .010 clearance i think its a lil more of a craps game as to what will actually improve accuracy.
 
The reason that I have recommended using an expander instead of any internal expander in a die is that I have done it both ways, using the same brass and die, and checked the results on one of my concentricity gauges. I have no prejudice except for what works the best, I don't think, I tested and know.
 
I think a quick mention of case neck annealing is appropriate to this excellent discussion.

After 2 to 3 firings and resizings, even brass lots that have been sorted for top consistency, will give inconsistent shoulder bump readings using the same die setting. This shows up dramatically when comparing sized cases with a shoulder bump gauge. Conversely, when the case neck is in an annealed condition (softer) I get much more consistent shoulder bump readings, which makes it much easier to hit my shoulder bump target whether it is -.0015 for a bolt gun or -.003 for an AR. Don’t mean to take the discussion in another direction but I know that annealing makes the brass much easier to work with and yields more uniform and concentric ammunition.
Mike
 
Think about something you are worried about crooked loaded rounds. right ? does it matter? there has been a lot of testing to the fact it doesn't matter,but stuff under a .001 doesn't hurt. Think about the chamber free bore diameter, say .2435 that is mine is and a bullet is 2432 that is .00015 per side. Now what you think is good still gets adjusted when you close the bolt...... Too many mind games.... jim
 
Some of my runouts on the bullet were far, far beyond .001. Like .007". Maybe even that won't affect accuracy, but as I develop loads, I'd like to avoid that nagging thought of crooked ammo potentially affecting on target results. Besides, it just bothers me to see something that far off, when ideally, it shouldn't be.

Phil
 
You are right, and I guess I need to look into annealing. Without a job right now, I may need to find a cheap way to do this vs those other fancy automated tools, which can come after employment...

Phil

gilream said:
I think a quick mention of case neck annealing is appropriate to this excellent discussion.

After 2 to 3 firings and resizings, even brass lots that have been sorted for top consistency, will give inconsistent shoulder bump readings using the same die setting. This shows up dramatically when comparing sized cases with a shoulder bump gauge. Conversely, when the case neck is in an annealed condition (softer) I get much more consistent shoulder bump readings, which makes it much easier to hit my shoulder bump target whether it is -.0015 for a bolt gun or -.003 for an AR. Don’t mean to take the discussion in another direction but I know that annealing makes the brass much easier to work with and yields more uniform and concentric ammunition.
Mike
 
Not all of those reading these posts are shooting chambers that have clearances as tight as yours and mine. Also, I have done the test, intentionally moving a bullet so that the concentricity of the loaded round was about .0035 and then chambered it (with the bullet seated into the lands) and the runout, about .150 from the end of the neck, was .0015. On the other hand, with a shorter freebore, and bullets seated to jump, I suspect that the degree of straightening would be less. (and Tony didn't report testing that situation). There are a couple of other variables that are significant, the thickness of the necks, amount of neck tension, and whether the bullet has a significant pressure ring at its base. With the typical neck thickness of a 6PPC, and the limited amount of neck tension that is available in front of the pressure ring of a seated bullet, which slightly expands the neck as the bullet is seated, the pressure ring allows the bullet to be pivoted within the neck with relative ease, sort of like a ball and socket. On the other hand, with a no turn, or clean up chamber, a bullet with no pressure ring, seated with more shank in the neck, and more neck tension, his sort of easy pivoting is virtually unavailable, so getting necks straight, and not messing up the potential concentricity of the loaded round while seating a bullet, become vital, if the best results from a fine rifle are to be expected.
 
Boyd, I understand what you are saying but you can't lump things together. Long range boat tail bullets don't have a very pronounced pressure ring like flat base short range bullets. The only one that does is the Spencer 103,I can only make that statement having used the BIB 104, Bergers, DTAC. and the Spencers. I have shot some very small groups with the junk left over. A free bore diameter of a .2438 still will line them up better than you can seat them........ jim
 
Thanks for the additional information. My largest pressure ring is a.2437 on a bullet with a .2432 shank. How does that compare? Also that bullet is about .135 into the neck.
 
Some people have mentioned the Lee Collet Die and I would like to hear a little more conversation on the use of these dies. I was looking for a Lee Collet Die for the 6mm BR Norma but Lee's website shows a Collet Die for the 6mm PPC and the 6mm Remington. Some people say it is ok to use the 6mm PPC Collet Die for the 6mm BR Norma and others say not to. I would like some feedback on this.
 

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