Wilson Trimer Issue

[264charlie]

Hello guys,

I am using a Wilson Trimer to trim then chamfer with the Wilson Deburring Tool. All the chamfers on the inside of the neck are canted (thin on one side, thick on the other). I am using the correct Wilson holder and "shark fin".

Is this a known problem with the trimmer? I wanted to know before I call Wilson tomorrow.

Thank you.

 

[bozo699]

Charlie,
Welcome to the forum. I own two wilson trimmers have never seen the results you are talking about. By canting do you mean its chamfering one side and not the other or do you mean its basically inside neck turning and one side is thicker than the other? Is your brass concentric to start with? I suppose its possible the case holder was machined off center but if it was your brass will be longer on one side than the other...is it? I suppose the trimmer/reamer holder was mounted off from the guide rails the shell holder sits on, but then again your trimmed brass would be off as well. One other thing I can think could do it is the reamer itself isn't right, does it look concentric when you turn it? is the end where the chamfer is,,,is it off center or canted? did you set the reamer clear to the stop then then push the brass into it with adjuster screw for the depth of cut you want? I cant think of anything else that could be wrong, I hope this helps and I hope it isn't anything serious. If it is I am sure Wilson will make it right.
Wayne.

 

[GermanS1]

Charlie, if the case neck thickness has variance around the circumference, the Wilson chamfering tool will cut as you describe (more of a cut on one side).

The tool and the case holder are on a common axis. However, if the case necks aren't perfectly uniform, the center of the inside diameter of the neck is not on that same axis, it is offset toward the thin side. That means the cutter is off-center toward the thick side and will generate a heavier cut on that side. You can test this by rotating the case holder as Wayne suggested. I think you'll find that the heavier cut on one side is not corrected through rotation.

There is no simple correction for this other than neck turning followed by one firing and then full-length sizing in a good die.

The equally important question is whether this has a material effect on concentricity or accuracy. You can test the concentricity effect by chamfering a few cases with the tool out of the tool holdeer (freehand) that should give a more even chamfer with uneven case necks as it will allow the chamfering tool to center in the hole. Once that's done, seat a few bullets and compare their runout to bullets seated in cases with the offset cut.

Accuracy testing will be more involved and difficult to control properly. I prefer to turn all case necks, so I don't have any thoughts on how much of an accuracy effect this condition might create.

 

[GermanS1]

Here's a drawing to illustrate what I wrote in the previous post. The black circle is the outside of the case neck which, if sized in a good die, is concentric with the case body and thus is on the same centerline as the case holder and the cutter.

The red circle is the inside of the case neck showing some variance in case neck thickness. You can see that the center of the inside diameter (the red line) is offset toward the thin side.

The cutter will be on the tool centerline (the black lines) and will, therefore, cut heavier on the thick side of the case neck.

 

[264charlie]

Thank you for the warm welcome...


Well everything look straight and true with the trimmer. I did not think of the brass thickness (don't know why). Well, I am going to pick up a 2nd Pumpkin today from Don for the 6mm. I will turn the necks and see if it improves.

Results will have to wait a few weeks as I will be out with family until the 3rd.

Happy Holidays guys.

 

[McKinneyMike]

Trimming will not help if the neck is not true with the case. Full length sizing and fire forming is the best solution before attempting this procedure I would think. Once it has formed to your chamber, the neck and body of the case will hopefully come into full alignment so that then you can neck trim and process the mouths without issue. I maybe all wet too though I normally just ream/chamfer my necks with a VLD tool and a Wilson chamfer tool by hand.

 

[GermanS1]

I think we may have a bit of confusion here because the tool Charlie is using isn't that well known. Wilson makes a normal hand-type deburring/chamfering tool, but they also make a chamfering tool that goes into the case trimmer body and that's what we're discussing.

Maybe my earlier posts about the chamfering cutter being centered on the case but not on the hole make a bit more sense with this picture.

 

[bozo699]

German,
You are the man I actually was under the wrong impression of what he was using. I thought he was using wilsons inside nk reamer, with a sized case they can be used for chamfering, I have done it many times but I didn't realize they had a VLD chamfering tool. I will have to order one immediately Wilson doesn't have a very user friendly site, I am not very good @ explaining myself sometimes, you explained it like I was thinking just not conveying. Thanks again for the illustrations German Salazar.
Wayne.

 

[GermanS1]

Wayne, I got mine at Bruno's, when they have them in stock it's cheaper than direct. Try Midway also.

 

[BoydAllen]

Assuming that the trimmer is perfect...if a case neck is slightly cocked (the common condition) in relation to the outside of the body, the case mouth will be off center in relation to the cutter. It is for this reason that I prefer hand held tools that can self center. With these, turning the case instead of the tool removes most of the error, sort of like turning the barrel instead of the reamer when chambering.

 

[spclark]

Yep, when it comes to this kind of operation, there has to be ZERO runout on cases otherwise any eccentricity is gonna manifest itself as an inconsistent cut.

Pretty certain the bores of the Wilson tools are properly aligned / centered when they leave the factory though it never hurts to check if you have suitable tools.

I use their trimmer also but prefer to do in/outside chamfers with hand tools. I consider myself VERY luck if more than a few of my cases end up with less than .001" run-out after a couple of firing/resize cycles.

 

[BoydAllen]

Case trimmers do not have to be prefect to do an acceptable job of trimming cases.
A long time ago, I became enamored with the idea of squaring case heads with my Wilson trimmer. This was for a .222. After "squaring" a few, I noticed that the start of the squaring cut was always in the same position, relative to the trimmer. After that, I decided that trimmers are not lathes, and discontinued the experiment.

 

[johara1]

I found that rolling the case while you trim helps a lot, it's not a lathe for sure. I use no sort of holding device on the case holder......jim

 

[bozo699]

BoydAllen,
I always enjoy reading your posts and usually always walk away feeling I have learned something. I don't want you to think I am arguing with you, because I am not but isn't the wilson trimmer really just a little mini manual lathe? It should be able to and mine seems to be very very accurate if operated correctly. I have checked mine time and time again against my rcbs and lyman trimmers and it always produces squarer mouths than the other two. I mean the other two trimmers mentioned the brass is held by the head of the case just kind of hanging there where as the wilson hold the case like a collet on a lathe. So if the center line of the case is truly centered and it should and better be or no amount of prep work will ever make it a competitive piece of brass the wilson trimmer should be able to do a almost perfect job of trimming,reaming, and chamfering IMHO. Please correct me if I am wrong and explain the errors of my thought process. Thanks much
Wayne.

 

[fdshuster]

I've been using the K&M inside taper neck reamer for a lot of years now, have recommended it to others, and they have reported back as also liking it. The centering pin passing thru the flash hole keeps the cutter straight, not canted as could happen without the guide pin, and the 3 pins that ride in the flutes accurately control the depth of cut to the recommended 1/32".

 

[BoydAllen]

Wayne,
Try squaring up some case heads with your Wilson, and see if the cut is on the same side of the trimmer for each. The Wilson is more like a mill than a lathe. The cutter turns and the work is stationary. As far as I know, the Redding trimmer is the only one that turns the case, and I have not tried one. If you turn the cutter, the cut on the neck will duplicate any misalignment. If you turn the case, the cut should be more even. I use a Wilson, and I have the regular angle chamfer cutter, that a friend who got one and then switched to the VLD angle gave me. I tried it. The width of the chamfer was not even around the inside of the neck. What can I say, when faced with a choice between what should work and what does work, the choice is easy. Now ask me if I know if the unevenness of the chamfer is an actual accuracy issue....Heck if I know. I haven't done a test.
Boyd

 

[johara1]

Boyd, You are right on the money. I trim with the wilson but i turn the case,but i chamfer with the K &M. I guess the next step will be the lathe..........jim

 

[bozo699]

Boyd,
I haven't noticed any issues with my wilsons but haven't used them to much for chamfering either. I think today when everything dies down I may run down to the loading room and do some playing. I appreciate your insight on this, seems you, Frank, and Jim are all on the same page so I won't argue I think will go and buy myself a K&M inside tapered neck reamer. I have also toyed with the idea of buying a good mini lathe, have any of you fellas used one of those for turning, chamfering or what not, I see Jim mention's one. Anyway Thanks guys.
Wayne.

 

[memilanuk]

A well-accomplished Hunter BR shooter around these parts used to work @ L.E. Wilson (literally the next town over) when I moved here ten years ago. I got one of those vld chamfer tools also, and had the same results as the original poster - the chamfer was visibly off center. In talking with the BR guy, he said that at that time, the case holders were machined to a nominal dimension, but then hand polished against a buffer wheel so the odds of them being perfectly round and exactly the right size were somewhat less than 100%. If you think about it... if the cutter is centered in an end housing that is 1.000" diameter (just throwing out a number, haven't measured it recently and it doesn't really matter) and the case holder happens to measure 0.998" in diameter as it sits on the rails... the 'centers' of the shell holder and the cutter ain't going to line up, no how no way. Which is why I moved on back to a Lyman VLD chamfer head in my RCBS case prep center, or my Giraud motorized trim/chamfer/debur wunder-machine

YMMV,

Monte

 

[Martin52]

I've also gone back to using a handheld (Forster) chamfer tool and get good results. I use a Wilson trimmer but no longer their chamfer attachment. I then persisted for a while with the well made K&M inside taper neck reamer but found it difficult to use often ending up with an uneven wavy line inside the case neck. I turn my case necks and measure case neck thickness and use Forster dies, I check the necks for concentricity on a Sinclair gage and all checked out well so never figured why I was getting such poor results with the K&M. I did think that one or more of the 3 fingers might be out of alignment, might sent back to K&M for checking.

Martin