Wilson die supplements...SAAMI hunting rifles ???

[Piney]

New member here....recently retired & relatively new to handloading (3 years). I currently load for six hunting rigs using only Wilson dies (neck & sizing). I have gotten sub MOA from all of them with a couple under .5 MOA with tedious load development.
With all the extra time on my hands, I've of course delved further into my new hobby & realized I've got a lot to learn ! For starters, I need an actual press (besides arbor). Decided to order a single stage Lee classic cast along with some Redding body dies for all the caliber's I load- 6.5 Creedmoor, 6.5 swede, 25-06, .270, .308 & .300 blackout. These are all bolt guns.
I plan to start bumping shoulders back .001 or so with the body dies as some of my loads are starting to chamber hard. I broke down & got the Redding competition shell holders to perhaps make the operation easier hopefully. A lot of folks are apparently using the LEE collet dies in conjunction with the body dies. These dies have a mandrel inside that effectively uniforms the case neck. My first question is: Can I continue to use the Wison neck bushing dies without neck turning in my SAAMI chambers ? I haven't noticed any issues with bullet seating yet, (very little runout) but I'm afraid I'm going to run into problems If I don't run a expander mandrel or something to uniform my necks & avoid donuts. Maybe I'm paranoid ? I've got a fair amount invested in Wison dies & bushings & want to make my system work as opposed to buying a bunch of new stuff....
My second question: Should I body size cases each subsequent loading once fire-formed? Also, in my situation should I body size before or after neck sizing ?

I started doing a substantial amount of research online recently to hopefully lower my learning curve. This forum certainly stood out to me....lots of helpful & knowlegeable folks on here. Looking forward to learning & sharing ideas...

 

['Freak]

Body size after every firing with the die adjusted to give the case just enough shoulder setback to maintain a case head to shoulder datum length that’ll provide for at least some up to two thousandths clearance betwixt the bolt face and the case head of the fully chambered brass, aka that case’s “headspace”.

There should be a precious plenty neck room inside a SAAMI spec chamber to not make it necessary to turn necks solely to provide adequate neck wall to chamber wall clearance. Turning necks does equalize neck wall thickness so when sizing down and truing the outside neck wall, you’ll not be shoving any neck wall thickness inconsistency to the inside neck wall. If the neck wall is .002” thicker on one side than at 180° opposite it, then the center point inside the neck, so also the center of a seated bullet, is offset by half that (.001”) relative to the center from the outside neck wall and from the outside of the case body, or an instant .001” of seated bullet runout due solely to neck wall thickness inconsistency.

But, if when sizing down the outside neck wall where the wall on one side is thicker than 180° opposite it, you use a neck bushing size that’s a thousandth or so smaller than necessary for the neck “tension” desired, and then using a mandrel expand from inside the neck, it’ll true the inside neck wall pushing the wall thickness inconsistency back to the outside neck wall where there’s a plenty room for it inside the SAAMI spec chamber.

And, if the chamber’s neck is SAAMI spec huge leaving you with a fired neck that’s ~ .005” or more greater than the neck bushing size you’d intended to use, then using an intermediate bushing size to bring down the neck OD in smaller steps, instead of all in one whack, will likely improve the concentricity of the finished neck.

And, when you light off a round, the silly high pressure produced will expand the brass outwards to the chamber’s extents which also expands, along with a little displacement of the bolt and receiver lugs, but all that steel stuff normally returns to before fired dimensions, etc., soon as the pressure is exhausted, and while the brass does try to return, it’ll not make it all the way back to before fired dimensions. Fired case neck OD ends up guesstimate ~ .001” less than the ID of a SAAMI spec chamber’s neck ID, roughly, depending, or so I’ve been told. The case’s length from case head to shoulder datum will have increased some with each firing but it might take a couple or four more or less firings to leave the fired case occupying the full extents of the chamber’s bolt face to shoulder length (zero headspace), assuming folk were not excessively bumping back the shoulder between firings.

The more folk work the brass, repeatedly altering its dimensions, the harder the brass becomes and the harder the brass the more the brass will resist change, so changes to the die’s adjustment, neck bushing size, etc, have to be made to end up with the same finished case dimensions over a number of firings.


And then there’s annealing …

 

[Piney]

Good information & thank you for taking the time to type that up !

My rifles have performed really well so far using strictly Wilson hand dies but I knew the headspace issue needed to be addressed....hence the press & body dies. I run most of my loads at the highest velocity node for hunting purposes & want to adopt a safe & reliable method for case preparation & sizing without getting into advanced bench rest techniques (for these rifles). I am researching "proper" annealing as that seems applicable to my situation.
I would like to stay with the Wilson bushing neck dies for now, which as you know only size around 3/16 of the neck. Is a mandrel expander the best option for getting runout/donut to the outside of the case after sizing? Probably be a good tool for new brass as well...
Great idea to stage the necking process considering the huge gap in SAAMI chamber...thanks for sharing.
As far as the body die goes, I considered it my best option considering the investment I already have in Wilson dies & bushings. I may end up going the collet sizer route if someone convinces me but I won't part with the Wilson seaters!