Williamsport - Why So Good?

[CaptainMal]

http://www.pa1000yard.com/wo/wotoplists.php?year=2011&cls=2+Gun+Overall&grsc=Group&topct=ALL&send=Submit

Eagerly watched for posting on this past weekend's World Shoot at Williamsport. Two local friends, one my gunsmith, journed from South Florida to show them how we do it.

They are crawling back right now.

Found their names in the results. It's easy. Start from the bottom up. You find them quidkly. Both will dramatically outshoot me this coming Saturday in the gong shoot. Yet, at Williamsport, they were but mere fodder.

Things I learned looking at the results:

Small groups don't equate to high score ... 6MM Dasher IS competitive and well-representated among top scores. ... important people do NOT use Savage actions ... Small groups take big bullets .... Factory barrels are good as a stake to tie your dog...use Leupold or Nightforce.

Why are they so good at Williamsport?

 

[Eddie Harren]

Perhaps they have been doing it for a longtime.

 

[queen_stick]

I'd like to know the answer to that question my self.

Williamsport is my "regular range." In fact, it's the only 1K range I've been to so far. I did well last year (my first year), winning a few relays, and shooting decent groups. I think it was beginners luck.

I'm off my game this year... the smallest I shot this year was a 10.8" group with a 91 score. That group happened to be in the World Open (LG class on day one). I was really happy about that, but was also very discouraged to see multiple 6" and 7" groups in my relay. I don't even want to talk about my other 3 relays... they were flat out poor!

I can't complain too much... I wanted a a top 25 finish in one category (score or group in LG or HG) I ended up 46th overall for score in LG... 30 spots better than last year

There's some tough competition up there... There are guys that shoot good EVERY match... that's just hard to beat.

 

[CaptainMal]

WOW! You did well. Thanks for that inside information.

Still own a hunting camp not far away in Centre, Co. Moved to Florida 12 years ago. Shoot 1,000 yards here at the Manatee Co. Gun Club. Figured our local "hot shots" would do well. Never met anyone good at that distance when I lived there.

YOU did well. Surely my friends learned from the experience. There must be way more to this than I imagined. You guys are good. Now give up all the secrets.

 

[queen_stick]

I appreciate the kind words Mal. I'm still sour from the results... I could have, and should have, done better (we all know how that goes). If you look at the 2-gun overall agg results for the weekend, that gives a better picture of how bad I shot... 105 out of 157 (I shoot one gun in both classes). It's not dead last, but it's not very good either. The good thing is, I learned a few things from mistakes, and I have some ideas on what I need to do to improve.

The Williamsport range is very difficult to shoot on. The last LG relay on Sunday is good example. During the sighters, everyone is hitting center repeatedly. Conditions were light and consistent. When the shooters began their record string, something changed, then let up almost immediately. Everyone's first shot went high, then the remaining 9 went into a small group. I don't believe anyone had an explanation for it... it just happened. Unexplainable conditions like that happen all of the time at this range... it will drive you insane if you think about it too much.

 

[jb1000br]

...The last LG relay on Sunday is good example. During the sighters, everyone is hitting center repeatedly. Conditions were light and consistent. When the shooters began their record string, something changed, then let up almost immediately. Everyone's first shot went high, then the remaining 9 went into a small group. I don't believe anyone had an explanation for it... it just happened. Unexplainable conditions like that happen all of the time at this range... it will drive you insane if you think about it too much.

Walt,

Man I am glad I was not the only one that happened to!! I was busy setting up the prizes (that I was not getting this time), so I did not see anyone else's groups when they brought lucky relay #13 targets out. Those 9 shots in 4.5" made me feel good till I saw that 1 waaay up north

JB

 

[queen_stick]

...The last LG relay on Sunday is good example. During the sighters, everyone is hitting center repeatedly. Conditions were light and consistent. When the shooters began their record string, something changed, then let up almost immediately. Everyone's first shot went high, then the remaining 9 went into a small group. I don't believe anyone had an explanation for it... it just happened. Unexplainable conditions like that happen all of the time at this range... it will drive you insane if you think about it too much.

Walt,

Man I am glad I was not the only one that happened to!! I was busy setting up the prizes (that I was not getting this time), so I did not see anyone else's groups when they brought lucky relay #13 targets out. Those 9 shots in 4.5" made me feel good till I saw that 1 waaay up north

JB

Your target was one of the last that I saw from that relay, which confirmed that everyone had the #1 shot sail up high. Vernon Reed's first shot REALLY sailed up there, which was surprising.. he's shooting the 6.5-284 in his LG with the 140 Berger's.

To be honest, a group like yours (one flier to ruin a 4.5" group) would make me more angry than my shotgun pattern

Good shooting Jason, as always! Now I need to convince you to trade my 6BR for yours

Walt

 

[lynn]

I would guess conditions determine the groups sizes more than anything else.
If you look at a post from Match 5 it looks like 50% of the shooters shot incredibly small groups.It takes good conditions to do something like that.
Lynn

 

[JRS]

Shooting those bigger cases doesn't hurt the group sizes and scores either

 

[in2deep]

I know most of these guys are fully capable and have rifles tuned to shoot great scores at 1000 yards "all things being equal" but there is again that large variance in group size and score from shooter to shooter even within the same relays and the same thing happened last year and there are only so many major variables so can we attribute most or all of this to wind reading?

What was the wind doing that day?

Do shooters use their own wind flags or are there range flags?

 

[memilanuk]

There was a rather long and somewhat ugly thread on benchrest.com regarding the wind and Williamsport... according to those fellas, its not possible to read the wind ???

 

[JRS]

A question, based on just enough education in physics to make me dangerous. At 1000 yards, how would anyone HONESTLY know how hard the wind is blowing on the target, and how much to "hold off" ??? We aren't talking about F-Class shooting

 

[MrMajestic]

Because its "Pencil, by God, Vania"! ;D

 

[JRS]

Because its "Pencil, by God, Vania"! ;D

Ah Ha ;D But which do we choose :-\ Brazilian, Hebrew or Russian :-\

 

[queen_stick]

The wind at Williamsport is ridiculous to say the least. Not because of the velocity, or switches in direction, but it's the fact that what it's impossible to see the overall condition. What you may perceive as a let-up in wind velocity may actually be an increase in velocity. Some days the flags closer to the bench tell the story, and some days the flags closer to the target tell the story. Some days, you can't base your wind compensation on any flag... you just shoot fast, don't hold off, and hope for the best.

Day one of the World Open, in the heavy gun class... I shot a 21" group. The wind was blowing from the left, pushing POI to the right. I had my first 8 shots in a 7" group. those 8 shots were hitting about 8" right of the bulls. The wind picked up in velocity at the bench, and flags at 100 and 300 yards showed the same. Because of that, I held off to the left of the bulls for shots 9 and 10. The end result was my last 2 shots hit to the left of my POA, indicating that the overall condition was actually a let-up. The total spread on the target was 21". What that group revealed was that the increase in wind on the first 1/3 of the range (according to what I saw/felt) didn't effect the overall flight path as much as I thought it would. In fact, there was less drift in what appeared to be increased wind velocity. I made an attempt to compensate for the wind, and it ruined any chance I had in the HG class, and 2-gun overall.

I've won relays at Willilamsport by holding off A LOT in the middle of the record string. (I've held off to the edge of the paper in some relays.) In most cases, holding off for the wind puts you in last place at Williamsport. I think I had beginners luck last year... I held off for at least one shot in each record string I shot, and I won a relay every time I went to a match last season. This year, I haven't won anything, and every time I hold off it bites me in the ***! It's very frustrating!

That's why heavy VLD bullets, fast cartridges, and shooting fast is the winning combination at Willaimsport. Get them down there before the conditions change, and if it does change a bit while shooting your record string, then your heavy VLD's moving as fast as possible will help cut your horizontal spread down.

 

[CaptainMal]

Queen_stick got something interesting out. Shot a gong match this past Saturday with two fellows that shot Willimasport. They would not shoot there in heavy gun again. Seems some guns weigh upwards of 70 lbs with rests that take men to carry. That's plural "men". Guy also told me one rest cost over $8,000 to build. My thoughts are it's borderline using a tank and artillery as opposed to rifle shooting.

During shooting these guns are not really aimed. The "operators" just stand there and feed ammo into the guns to shoot as fast as they can feed, shoot, operate and feed again. Fellow told me it was a "joke" to see that.

Heard of shooting fast to take advantage of stable conditions. Just did not realize what was involved in the heavy gun class at shoots like Williamsport. The guys got an education.

 

[TonyR]

Ten shots in 11 seconds does tend to stabilize the conditions, but, until a couple of years ago, the Bodines 1000 YD Prone Rifle League held regular prone matches at the Wiliamsport range and scores didn't look much different than what the same shooters achieved at other ranges.

 

[queen_stick]

yeah, there's one guy that gets 10 rounds down in 8 seconds. If you calculate bullet flight time, he actually has 3 bullets in the air at one time.

CaptainMal, I agree with you 100% about your thoughts on the heavy gun class. That's why I don't own a HG. When I use my LG to compete in the HG class, I'm basically competing against myself... I have no chance against someone who can get 3 rounds in the air before the first one hits the target.

Also, your numbers are low... there are a couple of 90+lb guns, and they're shooting small 6mm cartridges, like the Dasher.
90lb gun + 6mmDasher = no recoil. Literally. That allows for ridiculous speed.

 

[CaptainMal]

Holy #$*!.. Never dreamed anything like that existed until those guys talked about it Saturday. Now you confirm.

Holy #$*! This is like education. You never know how dumb you are until you learn something.

 

[TonyR]

"The will to win, compares little with the will to prepare to win."

Well said, Donovan! The folks that are winning those aggs do a lot more than go to the line and pull trigger.