Wildcatting case forming question

[SteveOak]

I would be tempted to get in touch with John Whidden on a question like this in order to see if he has a hydroforming option? Regards
JCS

A hydroforming die would be to expand the case rather then to reduce it but I may use hydroforming to form the case after setting the shoulder back to get a 40 deg shoulder and correct body taper or rather lack thereof.

I did contact Whidden and I received a prompt and helpful reply. They do make dies to set back the shoulder and would be able to provide forming dies for the 284 case. They indicated that two would be required.

 

[fguffey]

They do make dies to set back the shoulder

I will not ask them how they do that as in set the shoulder back. The shoulder I start with is not the same shoulder I finish with. When forming cases the shoulder is erased? and the new shoulder is formed from the case body or the shoulder or part of the neck. When I move the shoulder I wreck the case between the case head and case body.

F. Guffey

 

[Dusty Stevens]

Ok their die moves the shoulder.

Great dies steve. Youll love em

 

[fguffey]

Ok their die moves the shoulder.

They do make dies to set back the shoulder

There is something about reloading that does not seem fair, the shoulder I start with is not the same shoulder I finish with, meaning the shoulder on my cases do not move. Even when fire forming? if the shoulder of the case moves I am practicing bad reloading habits.

F. Guffey

 

[Dusty Stevens]

Ok their die relocates the shoulder to a different point on the case

 

[Dusty Stevens]

It swages it out then makes a new one in a different spot. Case forming has been around a long time. Butch lambert used to sell a die kit that did it. Looks to me like you already knew.

http://forum.accurateshooter.com/index.php?topic=3781267.0

 

[SteveOak]

Snip

if the shoulder of the case moves I am practicing bad reloading habits.

F. Guffey

Not sure if you are being serious here but I will assume that you are.

Fire forming is a usual practice in Wildcatting. You begin with some case that is commercially available. You may or may not reduce the length of the body. Then you load it and put it in a chamber that is not the same shape as the case. When it is fired the case will expand to fill the chamber and you now have properly shaped brass for your chamber that by definition is not commercially manufactured/otherwise available.

The most common example would be the Ackley Improved type of chamber. The shoulder angle is increased from say 24 degrees to 30 or 40 degrees. The taper of the case is decreased as well. You can place a standard case into the chamber and fire form it to the new, larger dimensions. It will now hold more powder and the increased shoulder angle causes the powder to burn more efficiently resulting in more energy out (in the form of increased bullet velocity) than a case with a lesser shoulder angle.

Another common example of Wildcatting is the .243. It is a .308 case necked down to 6 mm. A .270 is a 30-06 necked down to .270.

The direction my case is taking is more along the lines of a WSSM case proportions to achieve a shorter powder column for a given amount of powder.

 

[357Mag]

SteveOak -

Howdy, again !

I did locate the sample wildcat case I mentioned.

Case capacity ( not fire-formed ) is within the span you mention.

Please check your PM's.


With regards,
357Mag

 

[ireload2]

Get a 284 Win body die or trim die and cut the base off. Then it will push the shoulder position back.

If the base of the cut off die is too small after it is cut off simply polish it out larger.

If you are willing to have a custom reamer for the chamber made, custom dies made and all that stuff just get a custom forming die made.

There is no point getting wrapped up in such a minor issue if all you need is a forming die.

 

[fguffey]

The direction my case is taking is more along the lines of a WSSM case proportions to achieve a shorter powder column for a given amount of powder.

I would suggest the powder column gets shorter and larger in diameter. Nothing new, The 308 W does that when compared to the 30/06.

Another common example of Wildcatting is the .243. It is a .308 case necked down to 6 mm. A .270 is a 30-06 necked down to .270.

I would disagree, there is necking up and or down then there is all that confusion about the neck getting thicker or thinner. For the most part my necks get longer and or shorter, can it be both?

Quote from: fguffey on Yesterday at 11:48 AM

Snip

if the shoulder of the case moves I am practicing bad reloading habits.

F. Guffey

Not sure if you are being serious here but I will assume that you are.

"Not sure if you are being serious". All reloaders move shoulders, when I move a shoulder I am practicing bad habits.

 

[357Mag]

SteveOak -

Howdy, again.

Provisional specs of the shortened .284Win-based 6mm wildcat I worked on:

Case oal 1.710"
Neck Lg .310" ( a correction of what I quoted in the PM to you )
Shoulder diam .488" ( un-fired brass w/ slight mushroom from case forming )
Base diam .498" ( un-fired )
Rim diam .468"


Sample case' powder capacities ( to base of neck ):
40.0gr H4895 ( extruded kernels )
42.4gr D85 " ball " powder ( similar in burn rate to IMR4350 )
45.5gr WW296 " ball " powder


Additional info sent via PM.

Hope this helps ?


With regards,
357Mag
WItrh

 

[thekriebles]

Steve,

357Mag is a wealth of info.

You can also contact Mark Penrod of Penrod Precision in North Manchester, IN (260)-982-8385. He's been building a wildcat shortened 6mm version of the 6.5-284 since 2005. It's called the 6mm Toad. It's a 6.5-284 shortened to 1.906" with a 35° shoulder and necked down to 6mm.

I understand you want 6.5mm, so there's obviously no need to neck it down. I believe powder capacity is in the 45 gr. range. Mark should be able to provide you some additional insight with the case forming, loads and feedback for pursuing a 6.5mm version.

Good luck on your project.

 

[SteveOak]

Thanks to both 357Mag and thekreibles for the excellent, informative and helpful info.

I presently have 250 fully formed cases so I am good for a while. Part of the question I originally asked was to help me determine the feasibility of continuing with this configuration and if so, to perhaps order custom dies.

It looks as though it is feasible although a little more complex than a typical Wildcat.

I can now allow the results to be a primary determining factor.

Thanks to all!