Widcat on .225 Winchester

[dedogs]

I've been considering building a .20 cal widcat on the .225 Winchester case ( I aquired 250 at an estate sale, new brass). I would like to use 55g Bergers out to 400 yds (maybe 500 on a good day when my eyes aren't acting up). Rockchucks and ground squirrels mostly. Maybe a coyote or two if the opportunity presents itself. My question is does any one know if this has been done...
Rifle will be a single shot falling block, either a Winchester (new manufacture) or a Ruger #3. Leaning heavily towards the Wincester. I have already re- shaped the shoulder to 30 degrees and kept the neck long (.2160). Used a .219 Wasp forming die and then a series of neck bushings to get down to .20 cal. Second question would be what powders to try after build is done. Case holds 36.2 grains of water to top of neck and is 1.935 in length. I will probably trim .010-015 thou off and turn necks (very thick). Any thoughts?
P.S. Am newly registered to forum today but have been following discussions for awhile. would especially like to hear CatShooters thoughts as he seems to have extensive balistics knowledge and is a fan of falling blocks like myself. Thanks, Kevin

 

[CatShooter]

A single shot, falling block - you rang??

Your cartridge will be slightly below the 20BR - the suitable powders are in the burning range of 760/414, 4350, etc with the 55 Bergers - don't over look the 40gr Vmax too - it is a very slippery bullet.

Velocities with the 55 Berger will be in the 3,500 fps range, and with the 40 V-Max, in the 4,150 range.

The .225 Win case is a great case to build on. I would build a falling block on the .225 case in a New York second.

 

[dedogs]

Thanks very much for the POSITIVE input and very helpful info. I have become shamelessly addicted to single shot rifles thanks to my very helpful gunsmith. Gave me the use of a '85 wincester custom varmint rifle for a season in .218 Masburn Bee. (Makes me think of a dope pusher on a corner somewhere saying "Psst, Here try this--I won't charge you for your first taste!) Any way I promptly had a .20 Ackley Bee made up on a Ruger # 3 which I love out to 150-200 yds. Got a butt load of .218 new brass in the same estate sale. Next up is a .219 Wasp on a Sharps-Borchardt that he's almost done carving the stock for. It'll look like a Landis Special when it's done. Hope it's done by the time the 'Chucks come a calling. By the way "Hot New York Second" is one of my favorite expressions. Good to know I'm not the only one who relates to speed. I shoot the 40g V-Max in my Fireball and have always been very pleased with the results. Especially head shots. (wow!) When I talk to Dave Kiff about a reamer I'll mention that I might want to use 40g V-Max as well as the 55 Bergers. Don't know if I can throat for both, that 55 is mighty long. How ever 40g V-Max over 4000fps--Hmmmm.

 

[CatShooter]

Thanks very much for the POSITIVE input and very helpful info. I have become shamelessly addicted to single shot rifles thanks to my very helpful gunsmith. Gave me the use of a '85 wincester custom varmint rifle for a season in .218 Masburn Bee. (Makes me think of a dope pusher on a corner somewhere saying "Psst, Here try this--I won't charge you for your first taste!) Any way I promptly had a .20 Ackley Bee made up on a Ruger # 3 which I love out to 150-200 yds. Got a butt load of .218 new brass in the same estate sale. Next up is a .219 Wasp on a Sharps-Borchardt that he's almost done carving the stock for. It'll look like a Landis Special when it's done. Hope it's done by the time the 'Chucks come a calling. By the way "Hot New York Second" is one of my favorite expressions. Good to know I'm not the only one who relates to speed. I shoot the 40g V-Max in my Fireball and have always been very pleased with the results. Especially head shots. (wow!) When I talk to Dave Kiff about a reamer I'll mention that I might want to use 40g V-Max as well as the 55 Bergers. Don't know if I can throat for both, that 55 is mighty long. How ever 40g V-Max over 4000fps--Hmmmm.

I shoot that 20 cal 40 V-Max in my 20 Tac (10" twist), and it is one of the best aerodynamically designed bullets that they have made in the 22 and under sizes.

My very first centerfire rifle was a "real" 1885 Thick HighWall in .218 Mashburn Bee, with AAA presentation wood, and a bigassed Unertl on it.

How many 218 Bee cases did you get.

I just dug out my two 218 Bee rifles (a fancy wood #1 and a Browning M-65 lever gun) and all the "Stuff" - It wound up that I have 625+ in cases (100 are new for the M-65) - I washed all the fired ones, cleaned and neck sized and primed them.

It's gonna be a fun summer.

 

[dedogs]

I have 350 pieces .218 Bee and 100 pieces 25-20 that were in bottom of box. All new. I can make .20 Ackley Bee out of .25-20 but it's more involved. Also thinner necks which is a poa all by itself.
I understand from some of your posts that "Woody" is getting pretty hard to find in your neck of the woods. That is really too bad. Seems like all the things we used to do are going away. Starting to feel like a dinosaur.
Have you ever done any work with the .20 cal. 55g Bergers? If you have would enjoy hearing how you rate them. I'm strongly looking at your suggestion about 40g V-Max if I can find a reliable source. Wonder if they are hard to come by as there are a lot of guys shooting .204 Ruger and other such "modern stuff".

 

[MK 19]

Jim Rock was working on one right before he passed away last year, but you should still be able to get info on loads from Rock Pistol, Here is a little blurb from the RPM website:


"Working on another 20 caliber. 225 Win necked down to 20 caliber. Should be a cinch. Expecting both reamer & dies before long.
We expect the velocity to be at least 4000 ft/sec.

20 Rocket on a 225 Win Case. Easy to form one pass through dies. No neck turning.
We have them on the shelf. $156.00
Velocity as high as 4291 ft/sec with 26 Gr. Barnes."

(Quoted velocities were from a 12" Barreled pistol)

If you want to know more you can find contact info at:
www.rpmxl1.com

 

[CatShooter]

I understand from some of your posts that "Woody" is getting pretty hard to find in your neck of the woods. That is really too bad. Seems like all the things we used to do are going away. Starting to feel like a dinosaur.

I hear that! Connecticut has undergone a lot of changes, and they have not been gun or hunting friendly. We used to take our 22's to school and go shooting after school - and Sunday morning rat shoots at the town dump was as close to Heaven as I will ever get

I did line up a new farm in Massachusettsfor this coming year while talking to a farmer (not a gun site), and he is on a 250 acre farm that hasn't been shot in over 15 years... he said the place is rotten lousy with woodchucks... he thinks he is a farmer, but he is really ranching woodchucks and doesn't know it. ...

Have you ever done any work with the .20 cal. 55g Bergers? If you have would enjoy hearing how you rate them. I'm strongly looking at your suggestion about 40g V-Max if I can find a reliable source. Wonder if they are hard to come by as there are a lot of guys shooting .204 Ruger and other such "modern stuff".

No... I am actually kinda new to the 20's. Back in 2005-ish, I bought a XR-100 in 204 (12" twist) when they first came out, and the only bullet I wanted to shoot was the 40gr V-Max - the first one shot poorly (1-1/4"), so I sent it back and Rem replaced it, and that one shot worse (1-1/2")... and I suspected the 12" twist, cuz the 40 V-Max was pretty long. I was also disappointed in the poor quality of the available brass. I called Hornady, and they said the 12" twist was "very marginal" in a 12" barrel (which was my suspicion). So the gun sat in the "Projects" pile for a long time.

I liked the cute little XR-100 action, so I finely got off my butt and had a 26" long Kreiger 10" twist barrel (truck axle profile) fitted with a no turn chamber in 20 Tac (cuz of the availability of Lapua cases). The "smith", (Kevin Weaver), really butchered the crown something fierce, but I got that fixed.

I have new test loads ready for this fall (cuz the weatherman said spring and summer have been canceled this year because of global warming). It is the last day of March, and it is snowing again!

Weaver did do a good job on the chamber. It is a minimum no turn with Lapua cases (3 thou neck clearance)

I have not tried the 55 Bergers - I have owned a couple of very fast twist varmint rifles in the past, but no more - I am not fond of very long/heavy bullets on live varmint rifles.

The bullets tend to be un-reliable - sometimes expanding (or tumbling through), but often zipping right through like an icepick...

... but the 40gr V-Maxs shatter like glass when they hit.

 

[dedogs]

You are going to think you've won some sort of lottery if those 'chucks haven't been shot at in 15 generations!! A couple of summers ago my saw mechanic mentioned that he was getting over-run with rockchucks at his place. We call this fellow "Dr. Dan" because he is so good at chain saw and small engine repair. Any way I mentioned to him that I had just acquired a .17 Fireball that I had developed a load for that would do 1/4"-1/2" groups @ 100 and that I would be happy to come out and clean up his problem for him. He said o.k. but he wanted to talk to his neighbors first. Called me a couple days later and said have at it. The next day I went out to his place to look over the situation, make a plan, look over my shooting lanes and such stuff. Drove into his driveway and thought I'd gone back to W.Virginia's version of "Hillbilly Heaven". Shacks and sheds and barn interspersed with junk vehicles, dead lawnmowers, horse corrals and wood piles. All on only 2-1/2 acres. Back beyond the back fence is a 20 acre hay field with no houses or other buildings--Wide open! Every where I looked was Rockchucks!! Every building, every vehicle, all the wood piles--every where there were rockchucks! I asked Dan when was the last time anybody had harvested (no "hunting" here just point and shoot!) the place? He replied that as far as he knew no one had ever shot anything there. I asked how long he'd lived there and he said 20 years! Said he coudn't shoot for nuthin' and was always afraid of richochets hitting his horses or buildings. I told him that the .17 cal. 20g hollow-points I would be using were moving so fast (3850) that they would blow up if they hit a blade of grass so not to worry about richochets. Next day was Sunday so he had the day off and asked if I could come that morning. I said I'd be back at 8:00 am and I'd bring a wheelbarrow! Man was I jacked--this was going to be a blast!! Couldn't get to sleep (am I going to have enough ammo-maybe I should load some more-100 rounds might not be enough!) The shooting commenced at 8:05 am from under a big Ponderosa Pine I had selected as it was just about exactly 100 yds. from most of my chosen shooting lanes. By 8:35 I had killed 27 with 27 shots (all but 2 headshots). Already I'm thinking NOT ENOUGH AMMO! I couldn't believe these rockchucks-- they just kept climbing up on the top of the wood pile and looking at their dead buddies-- ("hey George what's up with Charlie?" "I don't kno" BANG! "Charlie? Charl" BANG!) Lord I was in "Shooter's Heaven"--totally in the zone picking my next target while reloading. My Sako is set up as a single shot. Any way by 9:05 I had shot 38 rockchucks off that wood pile alone. Shot them off the top, in the wood pile under the wood pile and next to the wood pile. 90% head shots. Took a break at that point to clean barrel and let the damn thing cool off. While I was cleaning the rifle on the back of my truck Dr. Dan came over and said "You don't miss much do you?" I said "Dan up in the mountains we shoot gophers(groundsquirrels) at 200yds. Many times in the head." "Do you think you can hit that one?" he said as he turned and pointed at his tractor parked next to the barn about 80 yds. away. "He's always crapping all over that thing." I looked where he was pointing and there laying on the big rear fender of this old Ford tractor was one of the biggest fat rockchucks I'd ever seen in the Bitterroot (the valley where I live). Boss Hog for sure! I said "Hell yeah I can hit him especially with a 1 ton Dodge for a rest." Put the 16p Weaver on his eye ball and noticed that he was all torn up with scars and fresh wounds all over his face. Must have been one muy malo rockchuck! Amy way I went ahead and tickled the trigger and poof! no more rockchuck. Literally shot him right in the eye ball. Not much of a shot at 80 yds. but I called it any way. Don't know how long rockchucks live but Dan said he'd been trying to trap him for 3 years. I didn't bother to ask him what he was going to do with him after he trapped him. "Chuck wheiged 10lbs 2oz on my meat scale at home that afternoon. Biggest rockchuck I've ever shot here although I've heard stories from old timers here that claim bigger! All totaled I took 43 rockchucks out of there the FIRST day. Went back the next evening after work and got 12 more. Asked Dan if I could leave a few for seed and he said "Hell no, you gotta shoot em all or I'll find someone that will." Couldn't really blame him after all the damage they'd done to his place. Over the next few days I took another 25 'chucks out of there. Last one took over an hour to get a shot at. Guess they finally figured out something was up. Never seen such stupid rockchucks in my life that close to people. Wish I could have gotten some long shots on some of them but 150yds. was the best I could do. The place just wasn't set up for long shots but definitley made up for it in numbers. I was really hoping for an even 100 but it didn't quite work out that way. When I walked in to Dan's shop the day I figured I'd gotten the last one Dan greeted me with a hearty "Dr. Doom! How's it going out there?" There were two other customers of his standing there and Dan proceeded to tell them how I'd shot the hell out of the rockchucks out at his place. Started bragging about the one I took off the tractor and that I didn't miss any that I shot at. One of the guys asked if I was available to come out to his place. I jokingly asked what he was paying and he said I'll cover your ammo. I said I'd be there tomorrow a.m. and should I bring my wheelbarrow. He said probably. (Yippie!!) Anyway the point of all this long winded story is that you are going to have beau-ceau fun in Mass. if those 'chucks haven't been shot at in fifteen years. Take LOTS of ammo!!
Getting back to your comment on long pointy bullets--I agree--32g .17 cal. Bergers go right through a gopher without seeming to do much damage. Unless head-shot. Tough to do sometimes. If I can get a chamber cut that will shoot both 40g V-Max or 55g Bergers I'll do it. If not I'm going to take your advice and go with the V-Max. Seems like we may be close to the same age--I to used to take my .22 or my shotgun to school and hunt after. (Sometimes even during ) Wondering if you still have the Highwall and who did the work on it?

 

[dedogs]

Mk19,
Thanks for the link. Beautiful pistols. I'm going to contact them and see if they have any dies left for what I want to do. Hopefully they will have a chamber drawing I can look at as I dont want to move the shoulder back any more than I have to. My gunsmith thinks I'm nuts (I am) but he's willing to do the project. Thanks again!
Kevin

 

[CatShooter]

Re: Wildcat on .225 Winchester

Wondering if you still have the Highwall and who did the work on it?

I don't have the original High Wall - I traded it for a Volvo car... Tom Roache did the work - he was my gunsmithing mentor, and eventually hired me, and I worked with him for 7 years. That was back in the days of the "Match lock"

... but I have a Browning 78 High Wall in 6mm Rem, a Browning BPCR in 45-70, a #1 in 222, a #1 in .218 Bee, a #1 in Hornet, and a High Wall in 45-120 (ouch!!).

The 78, the BPCR, and 222 have Unertls, and the 45-120 has a 5" tall, brass and colour case hardened Kelley Long Range Soule sight, with duel micrometer adjustments, and a hooded front with bubble level.

I met the same drug dealer that you did

From what my farmer said, I think my shooting will be like yours - and 250 acres of rolling New England farm land is God's country.

 

[dedogs]

CatShooter,
Sorry about the long winded post about Dr. Dan and his rockchucks. Kind of got away from me when I started remembering the details of that particular week. 30 years ago that kind of shooting would not have been that noteworthy but these days with all the varmint shooters and all the closed up land it's getting tougher all the time.
On a much brighter note--I got my first 'chuck this afternoon--.22 Ruger Mark III Hunter w/ open sights @ maybe fifty yards. Cheated and used some closed cell foam on the side window and just sat there waiting til he stuck his head back up. I'd heard rumors that the "gophers were starting to show down on the valley floor but had not heard anything about 'chucks. Didn't even have the rifle in the truck yet. I'd call it a drive by shooting but I was parked.
How well do your Ruger #1's group @ 100? Have you had anything special done to them in an effort to gain more accuracy?
I envy your ownership of several Unertle scopes. They are very scarce around here. Do you think the Mitchell's are any good? I would love to have a "traditional" long scope in homage to the old varmint shooters of the '30s-40's and '50s. Have you ever read any of Charles Landis books. I love reading about how all those guys experimented. Amazed, too at some of the groups they shot especially at 200yds. Can't wait to see what a .219 Wasp can do with modern components. By the way if you know anyone who has a little bit of .30 American I would be interested in purchasing some of it. That's all for now --my long post detector just went off!

 

[CatShooter]

CatShooter,
Sorry about the long winded post about Dr. Dan and his rockchucks. Kind of got away from me when I started remembering the details of that particular week. 30 years ago that kind of shooting would not have been that noteworthy but these days with all the varmint shooters and all the closed up land it's getting tougher all the time.
On a much brighter note--I got my first 'chuck this afternoon--.22 Ruger Mark III Hunter w/ open sights @ maybe fifty yards. Cheated and used some closed cell foam on the side window and just sat there waiting til he stuck his head back up. I'd heard rumors that the "gophers were starting to show down on the valley floor but had not heard anything about 'chucks. Didn't even have the rifle in the truck yet. I'd call it a drive by shooting but I was parked.
How well do your Ruger #1's group @ 100? Have you had anything special done to them in an effort to gain more accuracy?
I envy your ownership of several Unertle scopes. They are very scarce around here. Do you think the Mitchell's are any good? I would love to have a "traditional" long scope in homage to the old varmint shooters of the '30s-40's and '50s. Have you ever read any of Charles Landis books. I love reading about how all those guys experimented. Amazed, too at some of the groups they shot especially at 200yds. Can't wait to see what a .219 Wasp can do with modern components. By the way if you know anyone who has a little bit of .30 American I would be interested in purchasing some of it. That's all for now --my long post detector just went off!

Don't apologize about being long winded - I love reading about chuck shooting from guys that do it, rather than reading a bunch of guys theorize about it, who have never done it.
I read guys advice on chuck shooting and it is obvious that they have never put a cross-hair on one

The #1 shoots around 3/4", sometimes smaller, and never as large as 1" - it is not super accurate, but it is pretty reliable. I floated the barrel from the fore-end, so I can use "X" sticks with it, or rest it on a folded jacket in the ground, over a limb or truck hood without changing the POI.

I don't know if the mitchels are good - I have a "watch" on ebay for one and I have never seen one for sale.

Unertls show up on ebay fairly often, as do the Lyman Targetspot, also a super good scope if you get a clean one.

 

[Preacher]

Nice story dedogs, I liked it...
Kinda reminds me of a old farm I finally got permission to hunt ground hogs on...
He never let anyone hunt there, but after solving a rifle puzzle for him, he opened the doors for me..
The first weekend, I shot 42 of them, along with 2 coyotes...

 

[dedogs]

Thanks Preacher. Getting old is like driving in California-- It ain't for SISSIES!!!

 

[dedogs]

CatShooter, Thanks for the tip on E-Bay but I'll have to look elsewhere as I don't own any credit cards--don't believe in them. +1 on the Lymans--do you know any one who can recondition them? I have an old T-25 Weaver that's been reconditioned and it works great. Fine cross hairs and very repeatable. Little tough on warm days+long shots but at 150 yds I can usually hit 'em right in the eye.

 

[CatShooter]

CatShooter, Thanks for the tip on E-Bay but I'll have to look elsewhere as I don't own any credit cards--don't believe in them. +1 on the Lymans--do you know any one who can recondition them? I have an old T-25 Weaver that's been reconditioned and it works great. Fine cross hairs and very repeatable. Little tough on warm days+long shots but at 150 yds I can usually hit 'em right in the eye.

There is a Unertl group on the Yahoo Forums, (Unertl@yahoogroups.com) and those guys know people who can do repairs of Unertls and Targetspots - as for the t-25, I guess, "Google is your friend".

 

[dedogs]

CatShooter, I guess I wasn't clear about the T-25. I have absolutely no problems with it except on warm days at 200yds. and beyond because of mirage. I'm very happy with it otherwise and if mirage becomes a problem I just grab a different rifle that I can dial down--12 power seems to work pretty good. I know there are guys on here (and probably gals, too) who can read mirage and make it their friend. I'm just not one of them.
Thanks for the link on Yahoo.

 

[bheadboy]

at one point in history there was a outfit, in Birmingham, Al that would change the crosshairs of Weaver and super targetspots , I am trying to remember or find a receipt with the name, they fixed my first one for BR back in the late 60's - they installed a 1/16" dot on fine hair.

maybe someone else on here has used them.

Bob

 

[CatShooter]

at one point in history there was a outfit, in Birmingham, Al that would change the crosshairs of Weaver and super targetspots , I am trying to remember or find a receipt with the name, they fixed my first one for BR back in the late 60's - they installed a 1/16" dot on fine hair.

maybe someone else on here has used them.

Bob

www.scopedot.com

T. K. LEE COMPANY
1282 Branchwater Lane
Birmingham, AL 35216
205/913-5222

mailto:Info@Scopedot.com

 

[bheadboy]

thanks Catshooter, knew you were as old as me.

just have a better memory.

Bob