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Why not Ammonia?

BigJohn451

Ok at the risk of setting off something, and I apologize if I do....

Why not use ammonia based products for cleaning copper fouling? I see a lot of people say not to use it, but no one explains why and I see tons of products on the market that have it.
 
Big John

Ammonia will cause moly steel to rust if left in the bore. It doesn't have that effect on stainless, or at least not as quickly.

The answer, of course, is do not leave it in the barrel. Benchrest shooters use ammonia based solvents by the gallon and bronze brushes by the gross. If it was bad for their $500 barrels they would not use it.

It's like a lot of other things that shooters use and/or do. Before the Internet, nobody thought twice about it. But now it's a big deal and you hear all kinds of warnings that the world, as we know it, will end if you use ammonia to clean.

And, I'm sure the environmentalists will tell you that you're destroying the ozone layer and causing global warming, or worse.

Bottom line - it works better than anything else and there's no reason to be afraid of it if used properly.

Now, we'll hear from the other side.

Ray
 
From a corrosion engineering site:
Carbon steels in anhydrous ammonia service can suffer from stress corrosion cracking if the water content is less than about 0.1%, with the presence of oxygen (also small ppm). Stainless is also susceptible but to a much lower degree.

Leaving ammonia based products in the barrel is a bad idea and exposure to heat worsen the chances of corrosion.
 
Cheechako said:
Benchrest shooters use ammonia based solvents by the gallon and bronze brushes by the gross. If it was bad for their $500 barrels they would not use it.

Bottom line - it works better than anything else and there's no reason to be afraid of it if used properly.
Click to expand...

I'm one of those BR shooters who use Butch's Bore Shine and Sweets 7.62 on my expensive barrels and I can tell you the ammonia in them does no harm. Besides, the last thing we do is to remove it, once its done it magic, with a couple dry patches, prior to taking the rifle to the line.
 
I make my home made bore cleaner with white ammonia as part of the formula. I have a piece of stainless barrel soaking in Sweets for about 11 years now. I take it out occasionally and check it out. No damage.
Butch
 
I make my cleaner 1 gal. at a time. I use a 1gal glass jug. I put 16 oz of Kroil, 6 oz. of white ammonia, and top it off with GM Top Engine cleaner. I knew that GM was discontinuing the old stuff and I bought more than a lifetime supply.
The Top Engine cleaner is great on carbon, the ammonia is great on copper, and Kroil is a good lube. Years ago I was concerned that the ammonia wouldn't mix with the other ingredients, but it does. I bought a gal. of the white ammonia several years ago from a chemical supply house that dealt in cleaning supplies.
Butch
 
I personally just don't like the smell. I use the Bore Tech Cu2 copper remover and it works great. And no smell. Slim
 
Where do you find glass gallon bottles these days?

I recall being able to find them back thru the 80's but not anymore. I have a gallon of Shooter's Choice in a (now rusting) gallon can I'd love to repackage....

Will the heavier washer solvent plastic bottles suffer from this stuff? I'd be reluctant to use a plastic water bottle for fear of cracks over time.

Not sure if soft drink PETE plastic is affected, or a few 1 liter Coke bottles might be added to my next shopping list.
 
Without getting into chemistry on a level that I am not qualified to write about, let me say that I have seen significant differences in how ammonia reacts depending on the form it takes and the other ingredients that it is combined with in a bore cleaner. I believe that Butch's can be left in a bore, but I would not do that with Sweets. They both contain ammonia. As to tests using submerged barrel steel, I think that there may be a difference in what happens when other chemicals, residue from powder combustion, are present, and thin coatings of solvents that do not contain any petroleum evaporate, changing the concentration of the ammonia with no offsetting protection from corrosion. The greater presence of oxygen may also play a role. Over the years, I have found that there are ways to get the small amounts of copper that accumulate in hand lapped barrels, that are properly chambered, that do not involve the use of a cleaner that is best not left in the bore for more than a few minutes. Another thing, it seems to me that shooters who habitually check their bores with sweets have more copper issues than those who do not. Perhaps it is because getting every small speck of copper out is not really important at the target, and that preoccupation with doing so can end up with the tail wagging the dog, a slight blue tint being one thing, and dark blue being another. It seems to me that good bores develop a "patina" that is best left alone, and that cleaning methods should take this into consideration.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ammonia
 
There are a few people I know that use hydrogen peroxide with either Sweets or Butch's to accelerate the removal of copper. Don't know how well it works or the downsides.

Obviously oxygen concentration would affect rust production since it is iron oxide. Leaving ammonia in the barrel and shooting would add heat and other things that might enhance reactivity. Submerging a barrel in ammonia would not allow oxygen to contact the steel & ammonia, try drenching one then setting it out or partially submerging. To make things worse for the barrel store at 85 degrees & >70% humidity.
 
I think in real"LIFE" we are cleaning with it and not leaving it halfway submerged in ammonia. I think it is a nonissue. It works great on copper. I don't believe anybody would leave it in the barrel and shoot. I always swab a barrel down with my solvent and a dry patch or a wet patch with Kroil and a dry patch.
Butch
 
I agree Butch, just responding to some of the comments made already. I believe that the instructions on Sweets says not to leave it in the barrel for more than 15 minutes.

There are several articles on the internet describing the affect of ammonia on steel. In some cases it passivates and therefore protects and in others it increases the rate of stress corrosion cracking (what we may think is fire checking). It depends on the material and environment. The original question was why to not use ammonia and those articles answer that question. Why to use ammonia for cleaning is basically speed of removing copper deposits.
 
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