Why did the 6 PPC overtake the 222?

[Terry]

http://www.bartsbullets.com/6mm-grinch.html

 

[Tim Singleton]

The thing is there’s probably only a couple dozen people in the world that are even getting close to all there is to get out of the ppc
It’s the humans ability we have reached. I don’t think we have reached all the ppc has. That’s why we now see teen aggs deeper into the field than ever

 

[Greyfox]

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2018/11/mac-mcmillans-legendary-009-group-lookee-here/

Looking at this group and the many others like it from the triple deuce era makes me feel nostalgic for it. It also strikes me that there really isn't a reason, other than herd mentality perhaps, that everyone uses the 6 PPC for shortrange. I think Lou and Ferris were great marksmen who developed an exceptionally accurate cartridge and everyone followed their lead when they started winning with it. Or am I missing something?

Short answer is yes, you are missing something. Nothing wrong with the deuce and I have won a fair amount of fake wood with it. The thing about the legendary tiny group is, one group doesn't mean much. ( I once shot a group with a 14" TC Contender off a rickety wooden bench that measured near .1). The wind blows them in and the wind blows them out. In my experience the .222 is competitive with most anything @ 100 yards, but @ 200 it just isn't fast enough. I do think there are options other than the 6 PPC, such as the 22 PPC short and the 220 Beggs along with others. The 6 PPC wins because it's consistent. Most anyone who can shoot can win with it now and then and a great shooter/tuner can win a lot. You can't do that with a .222 or folks would. Along with inherent accuracy, I believe speed is most of the difference.

Rick

 

[jobhopper66]

I think Greyfox has just summed it all up in my opinion.
Ray

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

I think Greyfox has just summed it all up in my opinion.
Ray

That record is no longer held by either one. It was set when most everyone was shooting a deuce. For the next 40 years, virtually everyone shot a ppc but the record stood until a man named Stinnett, shooting an obscure 30 Grendel, broke it,(with a tuner) only a few years after a 30 Grendel was conceived and only a small handful of people were shooting it. 40 years worth was a whole lot of groups, trying to beat that record.

 

[jamesdmock]

Small groups are great and records are wonderful.....BUT the aggs are what counts in the short range Benchrest game. For example, Mac McMillan shot the .009 group but did not win the aggs for yardage or for 2-gun that day. There may come a time when the 6 PPC is no longer "KING", but that time is not here yet. When the .222 could no longer agg with the 22 or 6 PPC, it was dethroned as king. When a .30 Grendel or Br or ??? starts aging better than the 6 PPC, it may have a shot at becoming king. Good shooting and keep experimenting...…….James

 

[JRS]

Small groups are great and records are wonderful.....BUT the aggs are what counts in the short range Benchrest game. For example, Mac McMillan shot the .009 group but did not win the aggs for yardage or for 2-gun that day. There may come a time when the 6 PPC is no longer "KING", but that time is not here yet. When the .222 could no longer agg with the 22 or 6 PPC, it was dethroned as king. When a .30 Grendel or Br or ??? starts aging better than the 6 PPC, it may have a shot at becoming king. Good shooting and keep experimenting...…….James

As true as that might be, which cartridge won the aggs that day? When essentially everyone is shooting the same cartridge, that cartridge, whichever it might be, is going to win the aggs.

 

[jamesdmock]

What I was trying to convey is that individual groups in the 1's were very scarce with the .222 and aggs in 1's were almost unheard of. With the 6 PPC's, I have seen teen aggs finish in 20th place at a particular yardage (NBRSA Nationals, St. Louis 2005). Also, if we consider individual groups ….what about 200 yards and 300 yards? I know that Gary Ocock guided his 6 PPC to a .149" group at 300 yards and the late Tom Libby shot a .089 two hundred yard group. I realize that there is more to the great progress that we have made in accuracy, but until there is a cartridge as CONSISTENTLY accurate as the 6 PPC, we will continue to see it at the top. Good shooting....James

 

[JRS]

What I was trying to convey is that individual groups in the 1's were very scarce with the .222 and aggs in 1's were almost unheard of. With the 6 PPC's, I have seen teen aggs finish in 20th place at a particular yardage (NBRSA Nationals, St. Louis 2005). Also, if we consider individual groups ….what about 200 yards and 300 yards? I know that Gary Ocock guided his 6 PPC to a .149" group at 300 yards and the late Tom Libby shot a .089 two hundred yard group. I realize that there is more to the great progress that we have made in accuracy, but until there is a cartridge as CONSISTENTLY accurate as the 6 PPC, we will continue to see it at the top. Good shooting....James

I agree, James. However, I'd be willing to bet a dollar to donuts, that those same competitors could do the same with the 6MM BEGGS cartridge. If I'm not mistaken, Lou Murdica won an agg or two shooting the plain Jane 220 Russian while competing against the 6PPC shooters.

 

[Tim Singleton]

I’m not sure what makes everyone think other things haven’t been and aren’t being tried all the time

 

[sparker]

The caliber rule for sorters required something larger than .22. In addition to being very accurate, its bullet diameter allowed the 6mm PPC to be shot in all classes, and it is more consistently accurate than the sporter calibers that it replaced, and better in the wind at 200 than the .222, and the various wildcats that became popular before the PPC. In LV and HV 6mm bullet holes are easier to see at 200 especially when mirage is heavy.
Several years back my late friend Dennis Thornbury pulled a very good rifle from his gun safe, a sleeved Remington in .222, with which he won the two gun at a sanctioned match at Visalia, against a field of 6PPCs shot by very credible marksmen. I don't remember who else attended that match, but those matches would commonly be attended by Gary Ocock, Lester Bruno, sometimes Walt Berger, and often Tom and Caroline Libbey, in addition to other current and former record holders, including Stu Harvey. At that range, conditions are typically light and switchy, increasing throughout the day.

I shot small group of the day at Visalia one day shooting a Deuce.

Scott Parker

 

[jimmymac]

If there was a cartridge that would agg in the 0’s every guy on the line would be shooting it. Until then, there is the PPC.

 

[michaeljp65]

There is a bloke on the Saubier forum who campaigns a 20VT bench gun and does quite well

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Let's take 99 ppc shooters against one guy shooting..let's say a 6 beggs, or any similar case to a ppc that has proven to be a very good and accurate case.
Now, if we were to have a match with those 99 to 1 ppc to all else participants, what cartridge wins the match?
I think it's safe to say a ppc wins.

Now reverse the numbers...99 beggs to 1 ppc. Now what wins and why? If a ppc is truly that much superior...well.

 

[jimmymac]

It’s obviously a follow the leader thing, but with good reason. The PPC shoots small. It’s also a well known commodity so it’s like hitting the easy button. Information is easy to come by so it is pretty simple to get up to speed on what works and what doesn’t.

IMO. To unseat it, it’s going to take some serious tenacity along with a pile of money dumped into it, much like how the PPC came to be. It surely won’t be done by me. It would take a well known top shot or three to get on board with something and show the whole world there is something better. And, it can’t be a one off or a limited run of success. A pattern would have to develop and it would have to repeat itself for people to jump ship.

I have no doubt it can be done and I hope it happens just for the advancement of shooting. It’s like anything else. The king doesn’t remain the king forever. Kings come and go, but sometimes they live a long time.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

I agree Jimmy. Even if there were a clearly better option, there isn't enough room left to clearly and without debate, declare something else better.
That said, grand aggs are generally won at 200. If you simply used a ppc but with 80s rather that say 68s, as long as they are equal or very near at 100, it's hard to argue against the 80s at 200. Same goes for my preferred case, the 6 grendel. I feel like it equals a ppc and 68s at 100 but with 80s at 3300fps, I feel like the advantage of the grendel is significant at 200. It is true that if you pull the trigger at the wrong time with either, you're not likely to be gappy with where the shot goes but, as amazing as the groups and aggs have become, br is still a game of bad shots, not good ones. We're all tied for 1st place when the match starts. Whoever screws up least, wins. All else eq u AL or very near, the 80s won't go out as far as the lighter bullet, masking somewhat, a slight error in wind call.

Does it matter? Nope. The masses are going to do the the masses are doing.

 

[243BR]

Every top ppc shooter i know has tried numerous times to find something to beat a ppc. Ive seen way too many things over the last 25yrs that can beat a ppc but they never make it a whole season or sometimes even one match. I can assure you 110% if there was something even a tiny bit better then 50% plus of the top shooters would be rigged up before the weekend. They try and try but the ppc cant be beat with anything out there agg wise. When youre talking low teen aggs over a whole weekend nobody shoots a ppc because its easy- far from it i assure you. They shoot it for one reason- its the only variation of a metallic cartridge that can win at the low teen agg level. Its not easy to shoot a sub .250 agg period, with any cartridge. You gotta have your stuff together and you have to tweak your stuff every time you go to the line. Slip up one time and its mid pack at best

+!. I don't shoot short range BR, but show up and win a couple of long range matches with a pink gun with yellow poke a dots and the next weekend you'll start seeing them.