Whidden Gunworks Non Bushing Dies with expander ball kit vs bushing die
- Thread starter Titan
- Start date
I have the Whidden non-bushing die and seater for the 6.5 Creedmoor, but I do not have the expander set as yet so I'm interested in any experience people have as well. I've really liked the die and seater thus far and it sizes and loads new and once fired Lapua brass using Berger 130 AR Hybrid bullets with less than 0.001 runout.
Coincidentally, I just bought (2) non-bushing custom Whidden dies and use their expander balls to control neck tension. Their standard off-the-shelf dies will be roughly 0.004-0.005" undersized. This means that when the expander passes through the neck, it will work more to expand the brass, causing more work hardening of the brass. I bought custom Whidden dies because I wanted the dimension changed such that when I use the expander, it just kisses the neck, minimizing the stretching and expanding caused by the expander (button). This required some initial work on my part to determine the right neck OD to tell Whidden.
Example: I am shooting a 284 Shehane with Lapua brass. I skim turned the necks to 0.0145" roughly (not a full clean). My loaded round is 0.312"-0.3125". I wanted about 0.002" neck tension, so I need a neck OD of ~0.310". Taking into account springback, I went with a 0.309" neck for the die. So, this gives me these options:
1) If I wanted 0.002" neck tension, I just use the 0.282" expander. This expander would only expand my brass about 0.0005-0.001" which is ideal IMO because I am not overly stretching the neck to get to my desired neck tension.
2) If I wanted 0.0025-0.003" neck tension, I can use a 0.281" expander (which may not actually touch the neck), or I can run the brass through the die with no expander. I almost never choose this option by the way.
3) If I wanted a 0.001" neck tension, I would use the 0.283" expander. This would require a bit more force as it passes through the neck, but a little dry lube or lube in the neck makes it much easier.
4) If I ever wanted to "soft seat" a bullet, I can use the 0.284" expander.
I really like the set up I have now as it gives me options without overly working the brass. Also, there is no need for a dual process of using a bushing die with a mandrel die. I am getting near zero runout on my ammunition.
There is also a benefit of the non-bushing dies in that it sizes the WHOLE neck and not just a portion. IMO, I think this aids in minimizing donuts (but will not completely get rid of them) and will give the shoulder/neck junction a more pronounced angle like the one of the right in the image. Bushing dies over time make the brass look like the one on the left in the picture, which has a more rounded off shoulder/neck junction.
As it pertains to accuracy and increased scores, I cannot say if it does or does not make a difference. What I can say is that my brass fits better in the chamber, I have more control of my neck tension and I am getting more consistent seating tension as a result. Ultimately, the better scores will result from more time on the range and reading the wind more
Example: I am shooting a 284 Shehane with Lapua brass. I skim turned the necks to 0.0145" roughly (not a full clean). My loaded round is 0.312"-0.3125". I wanted about 0.002" neck tension, so I need a neck OD of ~0.310". Taking into account springback, I went with a 0.309" neck for the die. So, this gives me these options:
1) If I wanted 0.002" neck tension, I just use the 0.282" expander. This expander would only expand my brass about 0.0005-0.001" which is ideal IMO because I am not overly stretching the neck to get to my desired neck tension.
2) If I wanted 0.0025-0.003" neck tension, I can use a 0.281" expander (which may not actually touch the neck), or I can run the brass through the die with no expander. I almost never choose this option by the way.
3) If I wanted a 0.001" neck tension, I would use the 0.283" expander. This would require a bit more force as it passes through the neck, but a little dry lube or lube in the neck makes it much easier.
4) If I ever wanted to "soft seat" a bullet, I can use the 0.284" expander.
I really like the set up I have now as it gives me options without overly working the brass. Also, there is no need for a dual process of using a bushing die with a mandrel die. I am getting near zero runout on my ammunition.
There is also a benefit of the non-bushing dies in that it sizes the WHOLE neck and not just a portion. IMO, I think this aids in minimizing donuts (but will not completely get rid of them) and will give the shoulder/neck junction a more pronounced angle like the one of the right in the image. Bushing dies over time make the brass look like the one on the left in the picture, which has a more rounded off shoulder/neck junction.
As it pertains to accuracy and increased scores, I cannot say if it does or does not make a difference. What I can say is that my brass fits better in the chamber, I have more control of my neck tension and I am getting more consistent seating tension as a result. Ultimately, the better scores will result from more time on the range and reading the wind more
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Coincidentally, I just bought (2) non-bushing custom Whidden dies and use their expander balls to control neck tension. Their standard off-the-shelf dies will be roughly 0.004-0.005" undersized. This means that when the expander passes through the neck, it will work more to expand the brass, causing more work hardening of the brass. I bought custom Whidden dies because I wanted the dimension changed such that when I use the expander, it just kisses the neck, minimizing the stretching and expanding caused by the expander (button). This required some initial work on my part to determine the right neck OD to tell Whidden.
Example: I am shooting a 284 Shehane with Lapua brass. I skim turned the necks to 0.0145" roughly (not a full clean). My loaded round is 0.312"-0.3125". I wanted about 0.002" neck tension, so I need a neck OD of ~0.310". Taking into account springback, I went with a 0.309" neck for the die. So, this gives me these options:
1) If I wanted 0.002" neck tension, I just use the 0.282" expander. This expander would only expand my brass about 0.0005-0.001" which is ideal IMO because I am not overly stretching the neck to get to my desired neck tension.
2) If I wanted 0.0025-0.003" neck tension, I can use a 0.281" expander (which may not actually touch the neck), or I can run the brass through the die with no expander. I almost never choose this option by the way.
3) If I wanted a 0.001" neck tension, I would use the 0.283" expander. This would require a bit more force as it passes through the neck, but a little dry lube or lube in the neck makes it much easier.
4) If I ever wanted to "soft seat" a bullet, I can use the 0.284" expander.
I really like the set up I have now as it gives me options without overly working the brass. Also, there is no need for a dual process of using a bushing die with a mandrel die. I am getting near zero runout on my ammunition.
There is also a benefit of the non-bushing dies in that it sizes the WHOLE neck and not just a portion. IMO, I think this aids in minimizing donuts (but will not completely get rid of them) and will give the shoulder/neck junction a more pronounced angle like the one of the right in the image. Bushing dies over time make the brass look like the one on the left in the picture, which has a more rounded off shoulder/neck junction.
As it pertains to accuracy and increased scores, I cannot say if it does or does not make a difference. What I can say is that my brass fits better in the chamber, I have more control of my neck tension and I am getting more consistent seating tension as a result. Ultimately, the better scores will result from more time on the range and reading the wind more
Thank you for taking the time to share you experience. Good stuff!
bsumboa has the plan in my opinion. My most consistent neck tension comes when the expander opens the neck diameter up about .002" when it comes back through. For example, my .243 loaded round is .268" neck outside diameter. I use a .243" expander ball and a die that's .264" in the neck. The neck would be .265" if I sized it with no expander installed, and the expander opens it up to .267", yielding .001" neck tension.
Hope I haven't been confusing with this explanation.
John Whidden
Hope I haven't been confusing with this explanation.
John Whidden
I bought the Whidden non bushing die for my straight 284 and the expander kit that they sell. I like the concept that Bryan is using. I am prepping my brass very similar to Bryan in that I take a light turn to .014" thickness and will have a loaded neck diameter around .312" also.
My question is can I have my "Standard" 284 die honed out to size the neck down less?
My question is can I have my "Standard" 284 die honed out to size the neck down less?
Thanks for sharing your experience, I appreciate it.Coincidentally, I just bought (2) non-bushing custom Whidden dies and use their expander balls to control neck tension. Their standard off-the-shelf dies will be roughly 0.004-0.005" undersized. This means that when the expander passes through the neck, it will work more to expand the brass, causing more work hardening of the brass. I bought custom Whidden dies because I wanted the dimension changed such that when I use the expander, it just kisses the neck, minimizing the stretching and expanding caused by the expander (button). This required some initial work on my part to determine the right neck OD to tell Whidden.
Example: I am shooting a 284 Shehane with Lapua brass. I skim turned the necks to 0.0145" roughly (not a full clean). My loaded round is 0.312"-0.3125". I wanted about 0.002" neck tension, so I need a neck OD of ~0.310". Taking into account springback, I went with a 0.309" neck for the die. So, this gives me these options:
1) If I wanted 0.002" neck tension, I just use the 0.282" expander. This expander would only expand my brass about 0.0005-0.001" which is ideal IMO because I am not overly stretching the neck to get to my desired neck tension.
2) If I wanted 0.0025-0.003" neck tension, I can use a 0.281" expander (which may not actually touch the neck), or I can run the brass through the die with no expander. I almost never choose this option by the way.
3) If I wanted a 0.001" neck tension, I would use the 0.283" expander. This would require a bit more force as it passes through the neck, but a little dry lube or lube in the neck makes it much easier.
4) If I ever wanted to "soft seat" a bullet, I can use the 0.284" expander.
I really like the set up I have now as it gives me options without overly working the brass. Also, there is no need for a dual process of using a bushing die with a mandrel die. I am getting near zero runout on my ammunition.
There is also a benefit of the non-bushing dies in that it sizes the WHOLE neck and not just a portion. IMO, I think this aids in minimizing donuts (but will not completely get rid of them) and will give the shoulder/neck junction a more pronounced angle like the one of the right in the image. Bushing dies over time make the brass look like the one on the left in the picture, which has a more rounded off shoulder/neck junction.
As it pertains to accuracy and increased scores, I cannot say if it does or does not make a difference. What I can say is that my brass fits better in the chamber, I have more control of my neck tension and I am getting more consistent seating tension as a result. Ultimately, the better scores will result from more time on the range and reading the wind more
Dial up the good folks at Whidden and ask. Not trying to be a smart ass, you'll get a quicker reply.
They do have great customer service. I had a slight problem with a recent order that included a 6BR die set and a BR case gauge. The package of the case gauge was the BR I ordered but actual gauge was a 6PPC. A simple call got the BR gauge out to me, got it in 2 days, with a return shipping label. I like the gauge so much, I ordered a .308 today with some neck bushings too. I would replace all my Redding Comp dies with Whidden..... but I can't swing that with the wife......at least not all at once.
Thanks for giving them a call and reporting back! It saved a number of us from calling I'm sure. I will give the expander set a try after the more basic load development is done.
I can tell you that the standard non bushing FL sizing die from Whidden will size down the neck to an OD of .305" (i have my necks turned to .014") and that if I pull the .284 expander back through the neck it opens it up to .311" which is quite a bit of working plus its kinda of difficult to pull back through.
Good forward thinking on Bryan's part.
Good forward thinking on Bryan's part.
Thanks for sharing your experience.
VA_XTC_Shooter
Silver $$ Contributor
Instead of starting a new similar topic, I am bringing this one back.
I got the Full Length Non-Bushing Click die sizer and seater set as well as the expander button set for 6BR. I was considering sending the non-bushing sizer back to swap out for a bushing sizer. I could then play with a bushing and button to really fine tune neck tension.
I am wondering if this is even worth it or just stick with my original non-bushing die and assorted buttons?
I got the Full Length Non-Bushing Click die sizer and seater set as well as the expander button set for 6BR. I was considering sending the non-bushing sizer back to swap out for a bushing sizer. I could then play with a bushing and button to really fine tune neck tension.
I am wondering if this is even worth it or just stick with my original non-bushing die and assorted buttons?
Dusty Stevens
Shiner
Dont do the bushing and expander. I cant even recommend dragging an expander back in after fl sizing im a fan of the bushing only approach. One or the other.
VA_XTC_Shooter
Silver $$ Contributor
I know that many recommend bushing over expander, but Whidden gets better runout with his non-bushing with expander.
Runout being one aspect of brass prep, I was just thinking of the total control over neck tension without having to order a custom die like busumboa above.
Runout being one aspect of brass prep, I was just thinking of the total control over neck tension without having to order a custom die like busumboa above.
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