Which gas for annealing

[swampthang]

guys i just have to get this off my chest-
for the reloaders using a drill/heat source it makes me cringe- if you are getting the results you want then i applaud you but in MY OPINION i feel its all but impossible to ANNEAL correctly using this method. yes i know your heating up the necks , but i feel the key is CONSISTANT TIME AND TEMPERATURE to properly anneal a case. im not throwing off on what you think works but i just cant find any consistancy without using a benchsource dedicated annealing machine where ea piece is in the same spot in the flames for the exact amount of time from case to case. not trying to hurt any feelings and i sell annealing machines i just think FOR ME theres only one way to properly anneal consistantly and thats with a machine- good luck and i apolojize if i have offened anybody, that was not my intention.

 

[CatShooter]

guys i just have to get this off my chest-
for the reloaders using a drill/heat source it makes me cringe- if you are getting the results you want then i applaud you but in MY OPINION i feel its all but impossible to ANNEAL correctly using this method. yes i know your heating up the necks , but i feel the key is CONSISTANT TIME AND TEMPERATURE to properly anneal a case. im not throwing off on what you think works but i just cant find any consistancy without using a benchsource dedicated annealing machine where ea piece is in the same spot in the flames for the exact amount of time from case to case. not trying to hurt any feelings and i sell annealing machines i just think FOR ME theres only one way to properly anneal consistantly and thats with a machine- good luck and i apolojize if i have offened anybody, that was not my intention.

You are being anal compulsive about something that is not that critical... like timing hard boiled eggs to the micro second.

There have been a lot of threads posted on this site in the last 6 months that go into the science, engineering, and actual heat/time/hardness curves - go search "anneal*" (with the * wild card) in the above search tab, it instead of warning the world about acorns falling from the sky.

 

[Brians356]

Apology to the OP.
Do you paint Tempilaq on every case. Thank you.

Not necessary, and if you do it's a PITA to remove. Practice with Tempilaq on cleaned range brass until you get the timing right. Then simply anneal your normal brass (without Tempilaq) to this time limit, I use a large face timer.

Martin

What Martin said.

 

[Brians356]

guys i just have to get this off my chest-
for the reloaders using a drill/heat source it makes me cringe- if you are getting the results you want then i applaud you but in MY OPINION i feel its all but impossible to ANNEAL correctly using this method. yes i know your heating up the necks , but i feel the key is CONSISTANT TIME AND TEMPERATURE to properly anneal a case. im not throwing off on what you think works but i just cant find any consistancy without using a benchsource dedicated annealing machine where ea piece is in the same spot in the flames for the exact amount of time from case to case. not trying to hurt any feelings and i sell annealing machines i just think FOR ME theres only one way to properly anneal consistantly and thats with a machine- good luck and i apolojize if i have offened anybody, that was not my intention.

I suppose if you are annealing to make the brass so consistent as to theoretically demonstrate 1/4" tighter groups at 600 yards or something, I can accept your concern as possibly being valid. Maybe.

However, I'm confident Hornady knows something about case annealing, and so did Ken Howell, and they both espouse using Temiplaq to determine time to hold the spinning neck in a simple gas flame. We're "annealing" brass here, not a steel alloy, so it's not a critical process. All we are doing is restoring some softness to the neck/shoulder to extend the life of the brass and delay onset of split necks.

 

[ireload2]

Cringe if you want but do you have instrumentation that tells you how good your annealing method is?

Will this same instrumentation tell me how bad mine is?

If you cannot measure your annealing results - that is the actual characteristics of the cases you don't really know what you are getting or whether it even matters.

 

[Brians356]

Cringe if you want but do you have instrumentation that tells you how good your annealing method is?

Will this same instrumentation tell me how bad mine is?

If you cannot measure your annealing results - that is the actual characteristics of the cases you don't really know what you are getting or whether it even matters.

You're swimming against the current. Good workout?

Many on this forum have been annealing brass for years, even decades. Sure the evidence is anecdotal, e.g. "I was getting split necks after 5 firings, then started annealing and have not had a split neck after 50 firings" etc.

I suppose it's possible their efforts have been in vain, since they didn't measure instrumentally the brass' properties. And I suppose Hornady, when they published a simple, practical method for annealing brass, could have been derelict in their duty to the shooting public for the same reason. And I suppose the dean of custom cartridge forming, Ken Howell, could have been negligent when he described a similar method for annealing brass cases in his encyclopedic reference book.

Being an armchair gadfly is easy. Glean what satisfaction from it you can.

Meanwhile, the rest of us will continue to anneal whether we can prove it works to your satisfaction or not.

 

[ireload2]

Maybe you should look back to where my quote came from.
Look real hard. Think real hard after you read swamp things post.

He was promoting a machine for annealing without any proof that his process was any better than freehand annealing. Now you can go work on your English comprehension. I think you are guilty of what you thought I was doing.

Cringe if you want but do you have instrumentation that tells you how good your annealing method is?

Will this same instrumentation tell me how bad mine is?

If you cannot measure your annealing results - that is the actual characteristics of the cases you don't really know what you are getting or whether it even matters.

You're swimming against the current. Good workout?

Many on this forum have been annealing brass for years, even decades. Sure the evidence is anecdotal, e.g. "I was getting split necks after 5 firings, then started annealing and have not had a split neck after 50 firings" etc.

I suppose it's possible their efforts have been in vain, since they didn't measure instrumentally the brass' properties. And I suppose Hornady, when they published a simple, practical method for annealing brass, could have been derelict in their duty to the shooting public for the same reason. And I suppose the dean of custom cartridge forming, Ken Howell, could have been negligent when he described a similar method for annealing brass cases in his encyclopedic reference book.

Being an armchair gadfly is easy. Glean what satisfaction from it you can.

Meanwhile, the rest of us will continue to anneal whether we can prove it works to your satisfaction or not.

 

[andybrock]

The other reason for me asking about gas types is when I anneal my 22BR and 6mmppc brass it never seems to turn that nice blueish colour like the cases in Catshooters picture, mine seem to turn more pinkish!!

 

[CatShooter]

The other reason for me asking about gas types is when I anneal my 22BR and 6mmppc brass it never seems to turn that nice blueish colour like the cases in Catshooters picture, mine seem to turn more pinkish!!

The colour is not an accurate indicator.

All the cases are R-P, same calibre, annealed at the same time, at the same temperature, for the same length of time.

Differences were, one batch was new(ish) and one was ~10 years old... and one bach was washed and polished, and the other was not (but I didn't note which was which).

So don't worry about the bluish colour!.

 

[Catfur]

I don't have photos, but when I anneal freshly neck turned brass (before fire forming), it doesn't change color at all on the turned portion.

 

[CatShooter]

I don't have photos, but when I anneal freshly neck turned brass (before fire forming), it doesn't change color at all on the turned portion.

I have noticed that a lot - I don't know if it is 100%, but it is common.

 

[Joe Salt]

CatShooter Invest in a nice piece of Aluminum!

 

[spclark]

I don't have photos, but when I anneal freshly neck turned brass (before fire forming), it doesn't change color at all on the turned portion.

I have noticed that a lot - I don't know if it is 100%, but it is common.

Same here.

Remember brass is an alloy and different brands / different batches of the same brand will vary somewhat in composition. Too, fresh-turned brass doesn't have much oxide (of zinc mostly) on the surface that older brass has.

I've noticed a difference in surface coloration during annealing between brass of the same brand and lot when one group of cases was left to 'age' on the shelf after SS-tumbling while another was done almost as soon as it dried enough after the final rinse.

Surface coloration isn't a reliable indicator. One needs to work out the required time (dwell?) and temperature produced by their heat-source-of-choice, then strive to be consistent.

 

[Brians356]

I don't have photos, but when I anneal freshly neck turned brass (before fire forming), it doesn't change color at all on the turned portion.

That's because the "rainbow effect" is not from the brass itself, but changes in the refractive qualities of surface contaminants or oxidation, which have not had time to accumulate on the freshly-cut brass surface. It's not unlike the rainbow appearance of an oil slick on water.

 

[CatShooter]

I don't have photos, but when I anneal freshly neck turned brass (before fire forming), it doesn't change color at all on the turned portion.

That's because the "rainbow effect" is not from the brass itself, but changes in the refractive qualities of surface contaminants or oxidation, which have not had time to accumulate on the freshly-cut brass surface. It's not unlike the rainbow appearance of an oil slick on water.

It is not like an oil film - which is completely an optical effect and disappears when you look at it straight down, it has no colour by itself.

It is an oxide which has colours and they do not change when you change the angle of view.

 

[Brians356]

I don't have photos, but when I anneal freshly neck turned brass (before fire forming), it doesn't change color at all on the turned portion.

That's because the "rainbow effect" is not from the brass itself, but changes in the refractive qualities of surface contaminants or oxidation, which have not had time to accumulate on the freshly-cut brass surface. It's not unlike the rainbow appearance of an oil slick on water.

It is not like an oil film - which is completely an optical effect and disappears when you look at it straight down, it has no colour by itself.

It is an oxide which has colours and they do not change when you change the angle of view.

I stand corrected. The difference is between translucent and opaque.

It is not unlike a butterfly's wing. (And I did mention oxidation layer. Partial credit? ???)

 

[CatShooter]

I don't have photos, but when I anneal freshly neck turned brass (before fire forming), it doesn't change color at all on the turned portion.

That's because the "rainbow effect" is not from the brass itself, but changes in the refractive qualities of surface contaminants or oxidation, which have not had time to accumulate on the freshly-cut brass surface. It's not unlike the rainbow appearance of an oil slick on water.

It is not like an oil film - which is completely an optical effect and disappears when you look at it straight down, it has no colour by itself.

It is an oxide which has colours and they do not change when you change the angle of view.

I stand corrected. The difference is between translucent and opaque.

It is not unlike a butterfly's wing. (And I did mention oxidation layer. Partial credit? ???)

Pretty shaky ground there

 

[Brians356]

I stand corrected. The difference is between translucent and opaque.

It is not unlike a butterfly's wing. (And I did mention oxidation layer. Partial credit? ???)

Pretty shaky ground there

How? The iridescent butterfly wing is very much like the rainbow effect in the oxidation on a case. If you looked at the case under a microscope you would see the tiny grains which refract light, like raindrops in a rainbow - or the scales covering a butterfly's wing.

 

[CatShooter]

I stand corrected. The difference is between translucent and opaque.

It is not unlike a butterfly's wing. (And I did mention oxidation layer. Partial credit? ???)

Pretty shaky ground there

How? The iridescent butterfly wing is very much like the rainbow effect in the oxidation on a case. If you looked at the case under a microscope you would see the tiny grains which refract light, like raindrops in a rainbow - or the scales covering a butterfly's wing.

You made that up!!!



The oxides on the case do not refract light. Go buy a microscope - you will not see what you claim.

In order to refract light, the crystals must be transparent - there are NO transparent crystals on brass.

 

[Brians356]

I stand corrected. The difference is between translucent and opaque.

It is not unlike a butterfly's wing. (And I did mention oxidation layer. Partial credit? ???)

Pretty shaky ground there

How? The iridescent butterfly wing is very much like the rainbow effect in the oxidation on a case. If you looked at the case under a microscope you would see the tiny grains which refract light, like raindrops in a rainbow - or the scales covering a butterfly's wing.

You made that up!!!



The oxides on the case do not refract light. Go buy a microscope - you will not see what you claim.

In order to refract light, the crystals must be transparent - there are NO transparent crystals on brass.

They reflect light. Better?