Which Bullet - .308 at 1,000

[crewchef]

I've searched here and on other sites too and read a ton of posts and articles on this but wanted input from some of you guys (and gals) on which .308 bullet you use for long range and why. I'm currently shooting F-T/R mid-range (300, 500 and 600) using 175 SMK. Haven't tried to shoot this rifle (20" 1 in 12) at 1K as I recognize it's limitations. New rifle is on order, it will be .308, 30" 1 in 10. Will probably stay with 175's for mid-range but thinking there might be better choices for shooting at 1K. Any and all input appreciated.

Thanks!

 

[FroggyOne2]

I believe that you would be better served with a 11.25 or 12 twist bbl.. If your looking for a better bullet, I think the following would be worth looking at: Berger 185Hybrid, 185BT, 155.5fullbore and the Sierra 155 (2156) bullets, also you may want to consider the Lapua 156 as well. Most of the newer 155 class 30 cal bullets perform as good or better than the Sierra 175 SMK. You also have to take into consideration - recoil. There are some that are shooting the big bullets like the 208AMax or the like.. but in the long run, I myself would be looking at the new 185 Hybrid from Berger or the 155.5 Fullbore bullet. In Palma, I use the Sierra 2156 bullet and it performs very well for me. Just my 2 cents worth.

 

[TonyR]

You might want to look at the new 208 A-Max and the heavier Berger Hybrids which are now available. Much higher BCs and will work in a 1:10.

 

[Johnboy]

I too agree with TonyR on the bigger bullets that are out there.and with your new setup they should do really well for ya.A good friend of mine was able to get 5400 208gn A-maxs down his rifel with great accuracy.even takeing the 900 and 1000 yard jr.F class records with the loads he used.

now most are running the bigger bullets with R17 but have come to start useing Varget.R17 just isn't cutting it when it comes to temp.too many times its caused problems.I think most useing Varget have started at around 42gns and worked up.and not to forget to use win brass so that you can stuff more in the case.2400 fps or just over that is what they are getting from this combo.but you may just end up faster with your setup.

but hey its just my .02 worth.so go with what you want.

 

[Laurie]

Over here in the UK most people shooting in our national league either use 155.5gn Bergers or the 210gn VLD from the same company. The same people sometimes use both bullets making a choice between them depending on weather conditions at the start of the day. The 155.5s shoot tighter with better elevation consistency; the 210s shoot larger groups but are less wind affected.

Personally, I like the 185gn Berger BTLR. The 175 BTLR is also an excellent performer and is much better in the wind even at 600yd than the same weight SMK. Of the heavies, the 208gn A-Max has performed better for me than the three 210s on the market, but I can't give much feedback on longer range perfromance as my 308's barrel gave up the ghost on me just when I was about to try them beyond 600.

We've yet to see any of the Berger Hybrids over here in any weight. I would put money on the 185gn weight Hybrid and upwards being the bullets to use at long ranges from next season on if you don't mind the recoil from heavier bullets.

Don't write the 155s off though. Russell Simmonds, the reigning F/TR world champion, tried the heavies last year and returned to the 155.5gn Berger in a 1-14" twist barrel this. He has had a fantastic 2011 season and is virtually untouchable. He beat all the Open shooters in one GB League round earlier this year in a course of fire of two matches each at 800 and 1,000yd and would have been placed in the top three in Open in another couple of rounds! Unsurprisingly, the heavies were the bullets to use in the annual 'Long Range' F Class meeting at Bisley in early July (while TonyR and myself were enjoying some good shooting and uncharacteristically warm weather in the Scottish Highlands at Blair Atholl). Its matches are 1,000, 1,100 and 1,200yd and the 210s were noticeably superior at the two longer distances.

Tony, I know you're primarily an 'Open man', but have you tried Hybrids in .308W? I hear rumours that Darrel Buell is using them with very good results.

Laurie,
York, England

 

[TonyR]

Hi Laurie. I just got some of the big 30 cal hybrids and now need to get a 1:10 put on my rifle. I have high hopes. The BCs are very interesting. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't N550 the powder of choice over there for the heavier bullets? I hope so because I just bought a bunch of it.

 

[Laurie]

Hi Laurie. I just got some of the big 30 cal hybrids and now need to get a 1:10 put on my rifle. I have high hopes. The BCs are very interesting. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't N550 the powder of choice over there for the heavier bullets? I hope so because I just bought a bunch of it.

Hi Tony,

yes, N550 is the favourite heavy bullet .308W powder over here by a large margin. I prefer Re17 with the 208 AMax after trying a range of powders with it and the other 210s. It just gave me that little bit smaller groups and MV ES values than N550. I also tried Re17 with 185s and MVs were very high but groups and MV spreads were poor, so it only seems to work at 200gn, maybe even needing 208/210s in the cartridge. You'll likely find your N550 will work very well with 185s if you want to use them. My favourite combination with the now defunct barrel was the 185 Berger BTLR and N550 for 2,785-2,800 fps depending on the temperature. It held fantastic elevations at long range, better than I ever saw with 155s - but many other people couldn't get it to work as well for them. ( :-\ Cyber shrug of the shoulders at this point! :-\)

One tip with 200gn + bullets - use Lapua small primer 'Palma' brass with CCI-BR4s or magnum primers. You can run them at significantly higher loads and MVs you'll use / get in large primer cases. It's partly about the Palma case being very strong with more metal in the case-head, but also the small primer appears to change the pressure build-up in some way or other.

Best wishes,
Laurie

 

[TonyR]

Well, I have quite a bit of RL-17 as well so I'll be sure to ry them both. I have been getting excellent results with H4895 and the B185HPLRBT.

 

[Cimarron2011]

I am just a neophyte here. I am still working up to ranges beyond 500 yards, so cut me some slack if my response shows off too much of my inexperience.

Earlier this week, I read an ad from Brian Litz about his new tactical ammo. His tactical round uses a Berger 175 OTM which has a tangent ogive. Based on his research, this bullet remains stable through the trans-sonic barrier. The tactical round is a standard energy round suitable for use in semi-autos.

He used a Larue OBR with a 20" barrel for his testing. MV was 2600 fps, and the G1 was .510 (if I recall correctly). This round goes sub sonic at about 850 yards, yet he was able to get consistent groups at 1000. If you want to go higher on bullet weight, they have a 230 with a G1 of .711, but seems more like fit for a .300 Win Mag or .300 WSM to my novice eye.

It would seem to me that this bullet could be run up to a higher node with a higher energy charge, and a 26 inch barrel should be good for 2800+. Haven't tried it yet, but it's high on my list of projects.

 

[FroggyOne2]

Just remember that speed isn't everything.. find the most accurate load and learn it.. of course, it would be nice if the accurate node is at a higher safe speed.

 

[TonyR]

I am just a neophyte here. I am still working up to ranges beyond 500 yards, so cut me some slack if my response shows off too much of my inexperience.

Earlier this week, I read an ad from Brian Litz about his new tactical ammo. His tactical round uses a Berger 175 OTM which has a tangent ogive. Based on his research, this bullet remains stable through the trans-sonic barrier. The tactical round is a standard energy round suitable for use in semi-autos.

He used a Larue OBR with a 20" barrel for his testing. MV was 2600 fps, and the G1 was .510 (if I recall correctly). This round goes sub sonic at about 850 yards, yet he was able to get consistent groups at 1000. If you want to go higher on bullet weight, they have a 230 with a G1 of .711, but seems more like fit for a .300 Win Mag or .300 WSM to my novice eye.

It would seem to me that this bullet could be run up to a higher node with a higher energy charge, and a 26 inch barrel should be good for 2800+. Haven't tried it yet, but it's high on my list of projects.

I am just getting to know the 308, but one of the most significant issues is terminal velocity at 1000 yards and beyond if you are a tactical, prone or F-Class shooter. So, it is important to look at both muzzle velocity and velocity at the target, and I think that some of the top 308 shooters, at least in F-class, have found some interesting combinations that wouldn't seem make sense at first glance. For example, I watches some members of the Scottish F-Class Team getting excellent results with the 208 AMax at 1100 yards last summer and I have sence speken with other shooters that are doing very interesting things with combinations I would not have thought to try. QuickLoad and a good exterior ballistics program can be very useful in evaluating the alternatives because there appear to be many. Speaking of combinations that I would never have thought to try, I saw Laurie get excellent results with a 223 at 1100 yards at Blair Atholl so you never know.

 

[crewchef]

Thanks for all the input! I'll look back at all these and start narrowing things down. I was already thinking about the new hybrids. They're evidently very proud of them but maybe it's worth it. My wind reading skills need a lot of development so looking for bullets that might help minimize range of error if (when) I misread. I need a lot more trigger time in general so will probably stick with SMKs or something similar as a second load so I can afford to shoot more often.

 

[dreever]

If you are shooting the Sierra 175's try the new Berger Tactical 175 OTM. I am super impressed with this bullet out to 800+ yards.
For longer yardages or in the wind the Berger 185 Long Range Bullet is my pick. If you have a longer throat the new Berger 185 Hybrid just might be to your liking.

Danny

 

[crewchef]

It's great to have all these choices but at same time a curse. A man could burn up a barrel testing different bullets/loads. I do appreciate everyone sharing which ones work for them though and details around it.

Like the mention of the long throat. The rifle I'm currently shooting is Remington factory barrel and I should name it Linda. Waiting on the new rifle to be completed and looking forward to a barrel that's chambered without assitance of the company legal team.

 

[crewchef]

Drilling down a little. I understand the physical difference between the Berger 185 BTLR and the Hybrids but why would one be a better choice than the other? Hybrid has slight BC advantage but just slight. I'm guessing there's something about Hyrbrids that I'm missing but not sure what.

 

[BlackEagle]

I am just a neophyte here. I am still working up to ranges beyond 500 yards, so cut me some slack if my response shows off too much of my inexperience.

Earlier this week, I read an ad from Brian Litz about his new tactical ammo. His tactical round uses a Berger 175 OTM which has a tangent ogive. Based on his research, this bullet remains stable through the trans-sonic barrier. The tactical round is a standard energy round suitable for use in semi-autos.

He used a Larue OBR with a 20" barrel for his testing. MV was 2600 fps, and the G1 was .510 (if I recall correctly). This round goes sub sonic at about 850 yards, yet he was able to get consistent groups at 1000. If you want to go higher on bullet weight, they have a 230 with a G1 of .711, but seems more like fit for a .300 Win Mag or .300 WSM to my novice eye.

It would seem to me that this bullet could be run up to a higher node with a higher energy charge, and a 26 inch barrel should be good for 2800+. Haven't tried it yet, but it's high on my list of projects.

The trans-sonic range is significantly faster than the sub-sonic. I think the transonic range starts around 1.2 Mach.

 

[crewchef]

Just had to dig around a little bit more to answer my own question on the Hybrids

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2011/03/tangent-vs-secant-vs-hybrid-ogive-bryan-litz-explains/

 

[BlackEagle]

I'm new, and also getting started on a 1000 yard .308 load. I'm going with the 185 gr. Berger LRBT since I have a 1 in 12" twist barrel. Berger recommends a 1 in 12" twist for the 185 gr. LRBT and a 1 in 11" twist for the 185 gr. Hybrid.

 

[crewchef]

BlackEagle, as mentioned in one of the earlier replies, wouldn't skip over the 155.5 or 155 bullets especially with the 1 in 12 barrel. A lot of people do really well with them at all ranges including 1000. I'll try them with the 1 in 10 barrel too just to see how they shoot.

Right now (subject to changing my mind) I'm going to try the 155.5 Full Bore, 185 Hybrid and 208 AMax. I've got several boxes of 175 SMKs too so will probably work up a new load for them or might just use them up with current rifle which will be my new backup.

 

[dreever]

In my own .308 GA Precision Hospitaller which was throated for the Sierra 175MK to be fed using AI magazines with a max COL of 2.885 the Hybrids were to deep in the case to get the velocity I wanted before showing pressure signs. The 185 BTLR was a better choice for me. In a rifle that is throated longer initially and to be single loaded it would be able to use the longer length of the Hybrids and their slightly higher BC to better advantage.
There's no way out of it if you plan to use the Hybrids you'll need to chose a longer freebore for them and single load or else you'll have to settle for less velocity than you might like.

In your current .308 using the Sierra 175's do yourself a favor and buy a box of the Berger Tactical 175 OTM bullets. I did not change anything else in my load just switched bullets and my groups shrank noticeably. This bullet is a real sleeper. I've shot some very small groups at our ranges 822 maximum yardage.

Danny