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What’s the combination?

Hopefully I am posting this in the right place...?

Ammunition? Rifle barrel? Accurate wind reading? Pure skill or just pure luck?

I read all about this barrel and that barrel. This gunsmith or that gunsmith. Or brass prep and reloading regiment. What is it that you believes give you the edge in competition.

I was chatting with someone at the range today, the discussion was. If you don’t have a custom rifle premium ammunition’s won’t make it shoot better. My argument to that was I’ve seen guys with factory rifles out shoot the custom guy. I also pointed out the fact that GMM is the .308 litmus test, if you .308 doesn’t shoot it well, your rifle has something wrong with it.

So what’s your combination?
 
The combination depends hugely on the type of competition. However, the answer is "all the above". We need top notch ammo in a good barrel along with good wind reading skills to do well in most types of competition. And it never hurts to be lucky.

For LR BR, the tune is extremely important and good tracking is very very important. Wind is also important as you need to be able to find that outstanding condition that will let you shoot smaller than anyone else on your relay..........though finding that perfect condition often involves luck. Skill comes in when you read the wind well enough to be centered on target.

A good tune results from using consistent and precise loading methods and having a systematic approach. Tracking comes from having a straight stock and working on it until you get it right. Wind reading comes form practice.
 
I guess I'd need to know the type of competition.

I shoot f class. The winners around me all use custom something. Not necessarily $5K customs but something custom. Other than a Savage 12 F-T/R or similar I've never seen anything stock come close and even the Savages become semi custom really fast with new barrels with twist and chambers to shoot 200s.

I pieced together a $200 stocky's stock, Kelby Atlas action, Krieger barrel, jewell trigger and I became somewhat competitive. I was able to bed it myself with zero gunsmith skills. It's a ghetto gun compared to most on the line. Even then I have over $2K in it before scope/rings/bipod/rear bag(Add another $2k).

The only thing I need a gunsmith for is barrel chamber/threading. But that chamber is critical.

Load development is next and just as important. I won't even get into that rabbit hole.

What I can say is if all I shot was 3 shot groups at 100yrd my Rem 700 .308 Varmint with 175 smk handloads would be competitive with most f class guns. At 600 and 1000 15-20 shots strings it won't stand a chance.

Wind reading is probably the biggest factor for consistent winning. But if you have a crap gun it doesn't matter. Because there will be days where it's simply a trigger pulling(no wind) contest and on windy days it doesn't matter how good the call is if the bullet doesn't go where it's supposed to.
 
You can't compare individuals unless they are both at the same level of ability. Putting a custom gun and handloads in the hands of a guy who is not at the same skill level having him shoot against a top gun tells you nothing. I also watched a guy struggle with a 260 semi factory rifle, blowing up eld's etc couldn't get past expert; build a 284, feed it 180 hybrids and then win the whole match!
At an actual competition for the top guns the relay and target number/bench you draw matters, big time!
 
What I can say is if all I shot was 3 shot groups at 100yrd my Rem 700 .308 Varmint with 175 smk handloads would be competitive with most f class guns. At 600 and 1000 15-20 shots strings it won't stand a chance.

This is something I wish more non-competition shooters understood. A sporter rifle will occasionally shoot an outstanding group in good conditions. A competition rifle will shoot very good to excellent groups in average conditions consistently.
 
Simply put, your rifle needs to be accurate enough to run with the top of the pack.
How much you need to spend to get there is debatable.
Shooting it small and in the center is up to you.
Jerry
 
The most important factors to a large extent depend on the discipline in which you compete. They are not necessarily the same and therefore different factors may be weighed more heavily in one discipline versus another.

In F-Class, we shoot long strings of fire (20+ shots) over a period of anywhere from 5 or 6 minutes, to as long as 20 minutes. Wind changes during that time period are what will cost you by far the most points if you miss them. A rifle that will shoot 0.25 MOA 5-shot groups at 100 yd should be capable of producing 20-shot groups in dead calm to very benign wind conditions in the 0.50 to maybe 0.75 MOA range at 600 yd, and perhaps slightly larger at 1000 yd. Because the F-Class target "10-" and "X-" scoring rings are 1.0 MOA and 0.50 MOA, respectively, that level of precision is readily capable of producing cleans with high X-counts in benign conditions. Depending on the cartridge, even a 1 or 2 mph wind is enough to put a shot out of the 10-ring at 600 yd. Wind values between 5 and 10 mph can easily put a shot off the target face without correcting for the wind effect. Thus, spending days/weeks/months trying to tune a 0.25 MOA load into one that shoots in the 0.1s or better is going to do very little in terms of improving your scores when the wind conditions are challenging. You're talking about a difference between something like 0.1 to 0.2 MOA improvement at the target face (load development) and an effect that can easily put your shot out into the 8-ring, 7-ring, or sometimes even off the target face (missed wind call).

For F-Class, having a rifle setup that can consistently shoot groups at 100 yd under 0.5 MOA is sufficient to be competitive at the local, state, or perhaps even regional level. One that consistently shoots 0.25 MOA is even better. When you start talking about hummer barrels and the most expensive reloading equipment, there is no doubt they can also have a beneficial effect. But that effect is more readily observed among the very top shooters; i.e. those that already have very good wind reading skills. Certainly such things can make a difference amongst the top shooters, where even a point or two, or a slightly higher X-count means the difference between winning and not winning. At the very top of the leaderboard, it's different ballgame where EVERYTHING matters. So the answer to your question also depends to some extent on the definition of "competitive". One thing is certain, having a hummer barrel or that load that has been tuned to gnat's whisker is not going to allow someone with poor wind reading ability to win big matches, not even close.

The debate over custom versus factory rifles would be better answered by simply asking to what level of precision a given rifle will shoot. I've seen a factory rifle or two that would shoot extremely well, although most are mediocre. I've seen upgraded "factory" rifles (i.e. trued, with a quality aftermarket barrel) that were very competitive. I've also seen a few custom rifles that frankly didn't shoot all that well. Regardless of its origin, the level of precision to which a given rifle can shoot is the best measure of its potential. Also regardless of the origin of any given rifle, the difference between commercial ammunition and handloads can be substantial. With commercial ammo, the best you can do is test as many as possible and find the one your rifle shoots best. In contrast, handloads are specifically tuned to the rifle. In addition, the variance (i.e. charge weight, seating depth, etc.) between loaded rounds produced by a competent reloader and those manufactured by a machine are night and day. Even the most expensive commercial ammunition typically has significant variance in charge weight and seating depth that no competent reloader would ever accept. Finally, reloading allows one to choose bullets with the highest possible BC, the best precision, the best uniformity, so on and so forth. In most cases, the "best" bullets for a given discipline are not even available loaded in commercial ammo, so if you don't roll your own, you're simply not using the best bullets available. Collectively, all these things can certainly make a difference. But as I mentioned previously, putting a top quality custom rifle and finely tuned handload into the hands of a novice windreader is not going to allow that person to win big matches in F-Class. Not even close. So the big picture is one where you use the best equipment you can realistically afford, then you do whatever it takes to hone your windreading skills, as well as those in other critical areas.
 
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As far as your assessment that sometimes a guy with a factory rifle out shoots guys with customs you partizlly answered your own question. I believe shooter skill which would included wind reading skills is the most important single item. If the equipment is reasonably close the skill becomes even more important. I sometimes think many have obsessed on equipment because that is easier than putting in the time , money, and effort to obtain the skills. Luck is a curve ball, who gets what conditions is luck. That is my one attraction to 1000yd matches with shoot offs. Everyone has the same condition, no luck involved.
 
There are competitions and then there are competitions. At most "club matches" (F-Class) you will see a plethora of rifles and cartridges. F-Open shooters are limited to .338 and below calibers. Any cartridge falling in that parameter is good to go. F-T/R is limited to either .223 or .308. You can be "competitive", at least to some degree, with a decent factory rifle with well developed handloads. However, if you go to a "Championship" match like State Championships, Regionals or "The Nationals", you will be competing with the best shooters that choose to shoot that competition, generally some of the BEST in the country! I can guarantee you that virtually ALL of those shooters will be shooting Full-Blown custom rigs set up for their discipline. They will be shooting exceedingly well hand crafted ammo that has been tested to the inth degree. Do you HONESTLY believe that a factory rifle shooting GMM ammo will compete at 600 or 1000 yards against one of these rigs and their ammunition? I don't think so.
SOOOOOOOOOOO the question is: What do you want to shoot and how enmeshed in competition do you want to get? If it is just going to some club matches with little else besides that, no problem using a good factory rifle with well crafted loads. EVEN THEN, you may be up against several club members with Full-Blown rigs and excellent ammo. However, if you want to really develop your shooting skills and test them against others across the nation, you had better open your wallet and learn how to make excellent ammo and shoot, shoot, shoot to get better at wind reading and honing your shooting skills! But be well aware, it is addicting!
 
Years ago I took the best box ammo there was at that time and chrono'd, weighed, measured etc. Shot a 600 yard FTR match just for fun and compared to my hand loads at same range month prior. It was 15-20 points under. I know it was not same day, conditions etc. However, I just wanted to see the difference and although it was really good box ammo, it's not the same thing as a good hand load tuned for your rifle.

Pretty much confirmed what I already thought but with my lab background, I like to test. :)
 
If you look at the problem from a systems level. Shooter, optics, rifle, ammo, wind reading. Break it down how it makes sense to you. The system as a whole is capable of x. All of the parts contribute to x. The math is interesting, but not important at the moment. The system needs to work together. A single part of the system can throw the whole system off, but improving part of the system might not show any improvement at all. Wind is the one exception in my mind.

Each sport within the shooting world break these all down a little differently.
 

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