What’s a realistic accuracy expectation from a factory barrel?

[McHaggis]

Smallness of groups and largeness of anatomy are the two most lied about things in gun forums.

I don't think I ever mentioned my anatomy item you speak of?????
But I agree about small groups. You'll notice I never claimed it shoots .2" MOA but I have 2 or 3 such groups.
I'm happy to say that it's currently a .75" setup if I'm good enough on the day.
If you want some pics just ask. NO I'M NOT POSTING ANATOMY PICS Sorry! I just can't help myself sometimes

 

[oley55]

A pretty good thread this one. Aside the anatomy twist.

 

[McHaggis]

A pretty good thread this one. Aside the anatomy twist.

It is aye. Learning lots more and garandman is dead right about people claiming unrealistic group sizes after a one off fluke.
Not sure I've noticed much about his other claim though and I hope it stays that way!

 

[Steve Ladino]

I’ve got my 26” barrelled 6.5CM Howa HCR well under 1MOA and typically around .625 but I saw a target on here one day recently where the shooter was concerned about the vertical dispersion he had. My initial thought was that it wasn’t overly bad for a 100yd but could perhaps be reduced a bit with a bit more testing. Then I read the target was shot at 300 yards! This got me thinking. My vertical at 300 would make you guys cry, probably with laughter!
So what is realistic for a factory setup? When does one give up trying to improve results and just accept that without a custom barrel you got what you paid for? I mean is .25moa a completely unrealistic goal and therefore a waste of components and time trying to shrink groups to this size?

No, if the rifle and stock are correct as well as the bench manners and conditions comply assuming a BR scope too is used.

 

[Nick Caprinolo]

Buy a factory to carry in the woods and then expect it to shoot under 1/2 MOA, is an exercise in futility.

You have a pencil thin barrel put together with a massed produced action.

Most likely, after shooting a fowling shot, you can shoot groups under 1 MOA. Your first shot will be at or very near your point of aim. Second shot will be very close. By this time the thin barrel is hot and the third shot will stray. Try shooting two shots and let the barrel cool before shooting that third round.

When hunting, if you don't get a hit the first shot, you will rarely get a second try and I doubt anything will stay around for you to take a third shot. These guns are not designed for tight groups. They are made to be carried in the field and necessarily are of light weight, which does not equate to one holes groups.

 

[Big_Daddy]

My factory Savage Model 12 BCVSS....
Consistently shoots groups similar to this.

It shoots consistently well enough that I left my custom built gun at home last year and took this one Prairie Dog hunting.

Granted not all of the stock rifles will do this but I got lucky and found a rifle and a load that really works well.

 

[Homerange]

Buy a factory to carry in the woods and then expect it to shoot under 1/2 MOA, is an exercise in futility.

You have a pencil thin barrel put together with a massed produced action.

Most likely, after shooting a fowling shot, you can shoot groups under 1 MOA. Your first shot will be at or very near your point of aim. Second shot will be very close. By this time the thin barrel is hot and the third shot will stray. Try shooting two shots and let the barrel cool before shooting that third round.

When hunting, if you don't get a hit the first shot, you will rarely get a second try and I doubt anything will stay around for you to take a third shot. These guns are not designed for tight groups. They are made to be carried in the field and necessarily are of light weight, which does not equate to one holes groups.

Yes well not all factory sporters have pencil thin barrels, in fact some even win local events straight after load development. Some brands of factory rifles have inherent accuracy in their heritage and their varmint models shoot exceptionally well.
Generalizing that field work generally demands lightweight firearms is just wrong, sure if you need to go mountaineering for Thar or Chamois 8lbs of rifle is too much however it's a breeze to carry around all day in other than rugged terrain while one's reasonably fit and able.
While it's true lightweight barrels walk their POI around as they heat up what knowledgeable shooter shoots a string of shots in the field for that to even matter other than p'dog shooters onto a family of them. Then they're likely to have the right tool for the job and it's not gunna be with a pencil weight barrel.
Horses for courses.

 

[std7mag]

My first F-Open match was done with my Stevens 200.
I reamed the chamber for 7mm-08AI.
Bedded the action.
Stiffened the forestock.
20MOA base
Sightron STAC 4-20X50.
Shooting 140gr Berger VLD-H.
MV 2,832 fps.
ES-6/SD-2

Shot a 173, 173-1X, 173-2X.

Not great, but i had a great time!
Was my first time shooting 600 yards, only 3rd time i have shot from prone.

I went hoping to learn new things, not thinking i was gonna win, much less place.
The stress was on being the new guy, and hoping i didn't mess up. I hear it's actually not too uncommon to shoot the wrong target. Luckily i didn't that day.

 

[KY_Windage]

I have had one or two honest half-minute factory rifles and have seen a few more. Those were after careful load development. But I'd say it is foolish to think many factory rifles you buy are going to shoot that well.

But, no worries -- as soon as you achieve that it won't be good enough any way.

Call me crazy but I took a young, half-minute factory barrel off my 700 Varmint .204 and had a new Bartlein HV installed, bedded and trued. A fellow here happened to be looking for a used .204 barrel so I sold the factory barrel to him. He probably got the best deal on a used rifle barrel in history.

Turns out it was a good gamble for me, though. These are all 5-shot groups at 100 yds. I'm still experimenting with loads so they might get even better. Well, I will be when it warms up a bit.

 

[JEFFPPC]

Smallness of groups and largeness of anatomy are the two most lied about things in gun forums.

Might agree about truthfulness of group sizes but what do mean about lying about the study of the internal mecanisims of the expectation of accuracy of a factory barrel? I also think if you take some of the above mentioned factory barrels and actions and installed them in a 3 in benchrest stock and fired them in the manner you use to get the ultimate accuracy from a match rifle you might find they are a lot better then given credit for. I believe the 3 inch bench rest stock compared to the average factory hunting or varmint style stock is way undervalued in how it affects both ultimate and average group size.

 

[Hohn]

To the OP's question, I think "reasonable" varies a bunch depending whose "factory" barrel you are considering. I bet must buyers would expect a "factory" AI or DesertTech or Sako to drastically outperform a "factory" Savage Axis or budget Remington.

Given modern mfg techniques, however, I think just about any gun is capable of sub-moa now and then, but here's the rub that shooters so often ignore: SAMPLE SIZE and CONFIDENCE. The guys that post the BS about "half MOA all day" anything are clueless. There's almost no rifle and ammo combination in existence that will put 100/100 into a half moa. Never mind 500/500.

A group size without a confidence value is next to useless. It's like when my young engineers communicate a pressure drop without a flow rate, or current without voltage. It doesn't matter so much whether you choose 50% confidence or 90% confidence, but any statement of group size without confidence is mostly baloney. Because even a horrible rifle and load combo, given enough tries and random distribution, will eventually produce a brag-worthy group.

Buy enough lotto tickets and eventually you will win *something*.

This is why I think as shooters we generally think of accuracy the wrong way. Instead of discussing group size, it's better to choose some reference size (say, half MOA), and then stated the confidence value. What percentage of the time can your rifle/load/shooter combo place a POI within a half MOA of the desired POA?

Then, as you move up in skill and capability of shooter and gear, then you might move from 10% confidence, to 50% confidence, to a truly impressive 90% confidence. I'm looking at the 500y F-open club record held by our own Dwayne Dragoo, which was still "only" 18/20 X-count at 500 and therefore a "90% confidence sub-half MOA".


This is partly why I got into HP shooting because I now have meaningful data on accuracy at distance. I know based on scoring that I'm about 70% sub-MOA at 300y with my gun and load, based on a the 200/14x that's scored twice. A forty shot sample is statistically significant. As is a 60 shot agg if you are shooting 3x600 or 3x1000. A 5x5 grouping is approaching the "magic" sample size of 30.

Sorry this is so long, but I'll close with the reminder that the smaller the difference you are trying to detect, the larger your sample must be.

 

[dolek]

Might agree about truthfulness of group sizes but what do mean about lying about the study of the internal mecanisims of the expectation of accuracy of a factory barrel? I also think if you take some of the above mentioned factory barrels and actions and installed them in a 3 in benchrest stock and fired them in the manner you use to get the ultimate accuracy from a match rifle you might find they are a lot better then given credit for. I believe the 3 inch bench rest stock compared to the average factory hunting or varmint style stock is way undervalued in how it affects both ultimate and average group size.

You nailed it . I have a factory barreled Rem 700 Varmint , in it's factory stock I can have good days and keep it about 1/2" at 100 yards...most days I average .75" . That's with a tuned Walker trigger . I put the same barreled action in a 3" BR stock and also added a Jewell trigger set in the ounces . I can now call it a good day when I have a few groups in the 2s and most in the 3s and 4s . Action is bedded and Sinclair HV rest makes a big dif too . Lots of variables when it comes to these threads.

 

[BCBRAD]

I have a Tikka Tactical in 300wm it is braked. When new it shot a 4.00" 5 shot group at 1038 yards , H-1000 and a 208 A-max, 4 years later it shot an 8.00" 10 shot group at 1038 yards, this time in a McMillan stock with 185 Juggernaut and RL-22. Both were at club events.

 

[Hohn]

I have had one or two honest half-minute factory rifles and have seen a few more. Those were after careful load development. But I'd say it is foolish to think many factory rifles you buy are going to shoot that well.

But, no worries -- as soon as you achieve that it won't be good enough any way.

Call me crazy but I took a young, half-minute factory barrel off my 700 Varmint .204 and had a new Bartlein HV installed, bedded and trued. A fellow here happened to be looking for a used .204 barrel so I sold the factory barrel to him. He probably got the best deal on a used rifle barrel in history.

Turns out it was a good gamble for me, though. These are all 5-shot groups at 100 yds. I'm still experimenting with loads so they might get even better. Well, I will be when it warms up a bit.

KY, I'm going to pick on you a bit only because it's a useful teachable moment. The targets above are not showing nearly the accuracy you believe they are, because you are going only off group size in each case and NOT accounting for the shift in the center of each group. If you aggregated all of these groups around the center bull, you'd find the grouping was far less impressive.

A 5x5 with an "average group size" of even 0.3" is not a 50% 0.3" rifle. Why? Because you've moved the reference point every five shots! I'm sure posters here are aware of the technical distinction between precision and accuracy, but it's important we not confuse the two by applying a standard of "precision" to tiny little samples then extrapolating to "Accuracy" for a much larger sample. A rifle that is precise in only-five shot chunks is NOT necessarily an accurate rifle. And the bulls tell that story very clearly here.The sub-groups are moving all over the piace within each bull. If you imposed these groups all on top of a single bull, how many shots would be have a center contained within the circle? I'm counting 29/50 (could be wrong). Which means this rifle is 58% capable of holding the size of that bull at the range in question. If those are 1" bulls, then you have a 1" gun with ~60% confidence. That's a pretty accurate setup.

But contrast that with the average-of-my-group sizes approach that would suggest the rifle is shooting 50% of shots inside 0.3" of a desired point of aim.

All accurate rifles are precise, but not all precise rifles are accurate. And it's not appropriate to use small samples of individual displays of precision as a proxy for true accuracy. And, as target shooters, it is accuracy-- the ability to hit a given point-- that we strive for. A super precise rifle that can place bullets in the same spot on the 6-ring isn't going to satisfy anyone.

Precision is a necessary but insufficient condition for accuracy. A rifle can never be more accurate than it is precise.

We fall into this trap because we like to believe that moving the center of the group to the desired POA is just a matter of a scope click and voila. If only that were true. If it was that easy, why aren't any of the groups above centered on the dot inside the bull? This is a large source of error that you have ignored by focusing only on group size.

This error is why "precision" is a very incomplete part of the story. Accuracy is the name of our game, and precision only matters to the extent it translates directly to the confidence that POA=POI.

 

[Straightshooter1]

More examples of a factory barrel from a while back (RPR .308):

 

[JEFFPPC]

I don't think I ever mentioned my anatomy item you speak of?????
But I agree about small groups. You'll notice I never claimed it shoots .2" MOA but I have 2 or 3 such groups.
I'm happy to say that it's currently a .75" setup if I'm good enough on the day.
If you want some pics just ask. NO I'M NOT POSTING ANATOMY PICS Sorry! I just can't help myself sometimes

You did not but another poster did,lol, and I did not understand it either. That is why I questioned it.

 

[Laurie]

To the OP's question, I think "reasonable" varies a bunch depending whose "factory" barrel you are considering. I bet must buyers would expect a "factory" AI or DesertTech or Sako to drastically outperform a "factory" Savage Axis or budget Remington.

That's a valid issue and one that was mulled over at some length within the UK BR Association a some years ago. There are factory rifles, that are 'off the shelf', but have barrels that come from custom barrelmakers. To use one of your examples, Accuracy International used Border Barrels tubes for many years and now buys its barrels from Sassen Engineering (a British custom barrelmaker). Some Italian Vortex FTR 308s came into the UK a few years ago - 'factory made' with the company's own action, everything done in-house in a very high-tech CNC shop, the only significant non in-house part the Benchmark barrel. Under one definition, a factory rifle, but it cost the same as most equivalent gunsmith built FTR jobs. We eventually decided, these and others are not within the spirit of factory rifles and the barrel is the key component / issue. So they were taken out of 'factory class' and moved into custom.

Some 'true' factory rifles with in-house manufactured barrels are very good indeed though, particularly Tikka/SAKO.

 

[Dusty Stevens]

A sauer 404 was the most accurate factory rifle ive seen with tikka coming in second but a long way above the rest. Ive only got the pleasure of being the caretaker for one 404 but ive wanted one since then. Ive been around a truck load of tikkas and they all seem to shoot

 

[T-shooter]

There is a lot more to accuracy than the rifle having a factory barrel. Granted, all aren't created equal. But if it doesn't have manufacturing flaws, then it may have possibilities. Bedding the action is easy. Either modify or replace the trigger to get the pull weight acceptable. And then the 2 most important things, the ammo and the shooter. Here are some of the 1st shots from a new Savage .308. The lighter weight 147g faster ammo shot wild. The rifle was sighted in with the Z-Max from 100 yards.

 

[KY_Windage]

KY, I'm going to pick on you a bit only because it's a useful teachable moment. The targets above are not showing nearly the accuracy you believe they are, because you are going only off group size in each case and NOT accounting for the shift in the center of each group. If you aggregated all of these groups around the center bull, you'd find the grouping was far less impressive.

You are assuming I had the same POA on every circle, which was not the case. Not only did my POA vary throughout (sometimes I held on the center bull, sometimes the 3 o'clock position, sometimes the 6 o'clock position, etc.), but I was also deliberately dialing a click or two off so as to not shoot out my POA, and those "click offs" varied, too. In other words, I was shooting for group only, and at times dodging the wind.

I also up to now have been shooting ammo optimized for the old barrel. I still do not know what the optimal recipe is for this barrel.

But I can't wait to get there.

However, this thread is not about how great a custom or semi-custom rifle can shoot, it is about what to expect with a factory barrel. My point was, anyone after serious accuracy is probably better off foregoing the time and expense of trying to make a factory gun shoot .3 moa, and instead to put that money into a custom or semi-custom.

I just sent my gunsmith another one of those Rem. 700's to build me a super-accurate 7mm-08. That is "hopefully," of course.

This is why I think as shooters we generally think of accuracy the wrong way. Instead of discussing group size, it's better to choose some reference size (say, half MOA), and then stated the confidence value. What percentage of the time can your rifle/load/shooter combo place a POI within a half MOA of the desired POA?

I have a bunch of "half-MOA" rifles if that is the criterion. Maybe you meant "within .25 moa of the POA?"

However, you (and others) raise on good point on how to define a "half-MOA rifle." Because of the vagaries of ammo, wind/environment, rest, scope repeatability and shooter, I would say if you can shoot several groups and get at least half of them to measure .5 MOA or less, you qualify.