• This Forum is for adults 18 years of age or over. By continuing to use this Forum you are confirming that you are 18 or older. No content shall be viewed by any person under 18 in California.

what went wrong 185's at 1,000

Hey

was hoping for some insight into what happened.

I recently developed a load for 185 class bullet the chrony showed 2,800+ in a 308 win case, (SG according to JBM) is 1.162. G1 .525(no G7 reported as of yet was estimated to be .270). Again using JBM I am supposedly reaching 1,400fps at 1,000 yards. Even accounting for errors in the chrony I was above 1,100. Initial testing showed the load was excellent my best groups at 300 yards. Took them out to 1,000 and I could hardly keep themwintin 4 moa it wasn’t simply vertical either shots would be high left low right water line left and right. Now I had my 155 load with me and twice when I went from shooting the 185 to 155 the 155 would shoot X’s while the 185 were all over.
Conditions on testing day were ideal, 78 degrees, blue skies, light mirage 1-3 mph winds. 500 ASL

Bullet is a Flat base not the typical boat tail. Which is supposed to transition better between supersonic to transonic into sub…

The low SG is because I have a slow twist barrel 1-14 but even with the slow twist I was above 1 and they shot excellent at 300. does anyone have any ideas.

I know 1.4 SG is the standard but this is a fair weather rifle and will never see below 32 and most likely never below 45 degrees.

Thanks
Trevor
 
not enuff twist....I am suprized they shot at 100yds ......I dont know much about all the formulas that you were refering to ...but experience tells that a 168 is on the edge....and once in a while a 175 will work...Im a guessin that its too much bullet....Roger
 
Trevor,
Roger is right, your twist rate is to slow, the flat base bullets are not ideal for 1k. What was your SD and ES? my guess it wasn't great.
Wayne.
 
Thanks guys

the funny part about this is that my 300 yard group could be covered by a dime for 5 shots. SD under 4. i couldn't believe it myself. i tested them at 500 yards this past weekend and they were still holding under 1/3 moa.

My understanding relating to stability is that if the bullet is stable out of the barrel it only becomes more stable the further the distance because the velocity drops at a greater rate vs. the decrease in spin rate.

Trevor
 
Trevor,

there's something far wrong with your reading of the various bits of information. You simply can't have a 185gn bullet short enough to stabilise in a 1-14" twist barrel which will also provide an i7 'form factor' high enough to give an estimated G7 BC of .270.

Running 185gn 308s through Miller at 2,800 fps MV says the bullet length will be around 1.3" for an Sg of 1.13. The 185gn Berger BTLR is probably the most efficient 0.308 bullet in this weight prior to the current introduction of the new 'Hybrid'. The BTLR has a G7 BC of 0.283 and not only has a long 9.13 calibre radius nose section but a relatively long (0.18") optimal (8.8-deg) angle boat-tail section that reduces the base area from 0.07450 sq in to 0.04987 sq in, a 33% reduction. This will produce a third reduction in the BTLR's base drag compared to an otherwise identical flat-base design. While that only has a small effect on total drag at high MVs, it produces a substantial reduction in the second half of a 1,000yd flight as base drag stays constant throughout at all speeds while nose induced drag decreases in line with velocity. If I remember right base drag accounts for around 40% of the total in a long-range flight.

On that basis I simply don't believe that a flat-base design in the same calibre and weight can have a BC that is only 5% less than the BTLR's as an average 1,000yd figure. It has to be a LOT less! The fairly efficient long 190gn Sierra MK BT design has an average G7 BC of 0.268 according to Bryan Litz's experimental measurements done over a real flight, not calculated from the shape. That's not to say the G1 BC you quote of 0.525 is strictly inaccurate even though it is relatively high. It may apply, but only very briefly at a high velocity well over 3,000 fps. It's the average G1 BC over the whole flight that counts and it will be way down at 1,000 in lower velocities. The problem with G1 BCs is that they vary a lot depending on speed, so a manufacturer's quoted value is meaningless (a) as a single figure, and (b) if you don't know the context it has been calculated / measured in. That's why Sierra quotes up to five G1 BC values in speed bands.

The Berger BTLR is marginally longer than your bullet must be at 1.353". Miller gives it an Sg of 1.03 in a 1-14" twist barrel at 2,800 fps MV. This ties in with experience that shows that this bullet stabilises under benign conditions - ie high temperatures and low atmospheric pressure - in a 1-13" twist (Sg 1.2 under standard 59 deg F 29.92" Hg pressure), but only marginally and 1-12" is better. I know from personal experience that this bullet gave tremendous short-range results in a 1-13.5" twist Bartlein (Sg = 1.11 under standard conditions), but wouldn't perform at 900yd in an early winter's day with a two-MOA vertical dispersion suggesting marginal instability.

I reckon you have a much lower BC than you believe so the bullet slows a lot faster than expected beyond 600yd, and as it slows into transsonic speeds, the flat base produces turbulence around the bullet base which increases drag slowing it ever faster in a vicious circle, then the barely stabilised bullet is affected by the turbulence making it unstable as well as slow.

Incidentally, Bryan Litz's Point Mass Ballistics Solver 2.0 program estimates a 185gn bullet with .27 G7 BC at 2,800 is travelling at a rather slower 1,330 fps at 1,000yd under standard conditions.
 
Thanks Laurie

Thanks for the information. the reason i even attempted to try these bullets in 1-14 was the information i received from another individual who is shooting these exact bullets in a 1-14 twist but using a 300 WSM and not the 308 Win. We discussed this at length about the reduction in velocity and the possible affects and whether or not they would remain stable at 1,000. The suggestion was to maintain them above 1,400fps which is REALLY hard to do with the 308 winchester. That being said while my 13 twist is on order i thought i would give it a go. The result pleasantly suprised me at 300 and with them being stable i tried them out to 1,000 were they fell flat on their face. I simple couldn't figure out why...

The BC. is calculated using doppler radar. As the bullet maker has posted the info on their website i will share it here.

30 cal. FB, 10 (TEN) Ogive : 10 ogive/.0625 meplat, .3086 pressure ring; .3083 shank : 187 G.FB, BC – .52*** (1.300″ J4) (Note: *** this BC was measured via Doppler RADAR at .525 - the calculated BC is .54)

As to my estimation of the G7 it was simple an interpolation of several G7's posted on Berger's website and Bryan book against known G1 to G7's. I do point these bullets but can't with any kind of accuracy determine how much the BC would be improved by reducing the meplat from .0625 to .030.

So if i understand this correctly in order to avoid all the fun i am having at 1,000 as the bullet passes through the transonic region i need to ensure they stay above 1,400 FPS at 1,000 yards. If my ASSumption is correct they should work out to 900 yards without issue.

Does these even sound remotely plausable???

I will have the chance this weekend to testfurther as we will be having a practice session at 800meters or 880 yards.

The only reason i continue to pursue this is that the 300 yards groups are TOO good to pass up and if they can hold this at further distances i will be using these bulelts as far out as i can in the current barrel.

Thanks
Trevor
 
Trevor,

I still find it difficult to see a flat-base 10R nose bullet achieve the same BC as the 190gn Sierra MK HPBT even though the latter has a relatively blunt 7R nose section, except maybe at a single high velocity.

Flat-base bullets can perform at 1,000 - after all we Brits used the .303 Mk VII cartridge in Service Rifle out to this range - and a lot further than 1,000 in some weird shoots at incredible ranges in Scotland off alfresco firing points such as the back of a flat-base truck at Barry Buddon Ranges in Angus. And that's a 174gn FMJ-FB at only 2,440 fps nominal. They were very heavily, some would assert over-heavily, stabilised though in the standard 1-10" twist rate in Enfield rifles.

Give it a go at 800M - if they work great - only remember that when you're on the margins for stability, a great (or bad) result on one outing can be reversed at the same distance next time around. I too read Bryan Litz's view that if the twist rate stabilises a bullet at short range, its effective Sg actually increases downrange as the rotational speed bleeds off far more slowly than the overturning motion acting on the bullet due to air drag / retained velocity. I'm not sure this works out in practice though, and wonder if other factors interact with those that determine gyroscopic stability?

Personally, I would never use an FB design beyond 600yd when there are very good BT alternatives, but I'd love to be proven wrong in this assertion. I am rebarrelling my 6BR to 6BR-DX as it happens with a 1-10" twist to use Berger 88gn HBC-FB bullets in 600yd bench rest, but that may prove to be a mistaken move. If using this rifle beyond 600yd I'd go for a 1-8" twist and 95-108gn VLDs every time as I believe the terminal ballistics and wind drift in any wind condition / change will always be better. Incidentally, the 0.243" 88gn HBC-FB which is a secant ogive nose VLD design with an FB back end substituted for the VLD's boat-tail has a G1 BC of 0.391 according to Berger's website (no G7 as it's not classed as a long-range bullet) and that compares to an experimentally derived 0.412 G1 BC from the similar weight 0.243" Berger 87gn VLD. I imagine this comparison flatters the 88gn HBC-FB as it will be a design based calculated figure rather than the latter's average BC over a longish flight.

On the .300WSM v .308W comparison issue, the latter just can't make the older short-range 168s perform in all conditions irrespective of the twist rate used as they risk becoming unstable due to their overly sharp boat-tail angles. I have a Winchester [Enfield] P'14 action rifle in .300 H&H Magnum with a 1-12" twist 30" Palma barrel on it which I used in the very early days of F Class. Although I normally shot 185s at long ranges, I proved to myself that this cartridge gave both the Hornady 168gn HPBTM and same weight Sierra MK enough velocity to keep these bullets going fast enough at 1,000 to stay out of the turbulence zones and group very well. Although it upsets many .300WSM owners when I say this, the antediluvian .300 H&H is the ballistic twin of the WSM both having the same case capacity and operating at 65,000 psi SAAMI PMax.

Good luck at 800 metres.

Laurie,
York, England
 
Update

Shot at 800 meters 880 yards and the bullets worked well waterline elevation (actually surprisingly how little elevation there was) conditions were 72 degrees, light winds 3-5mph, early morning light mirage. 10 shot sample scored 48 3v out of 50 (practice session) lost points due to wind not elevation. Estimated speed at 800 is 1,536fps. I am encouraged that these bullets will shoot out to 800 meters without issue. Shoot the Gooderham match Sat 500yards using the 185’s and 900meters with the 155’s managed to take first place. I would prefer to use one bullet for both distances as doing math in your head to adjust for elevation between heavies and lights is going to bite me in the ass. I just don’t want to give up the better wind advantage with the heavier bullets if I can avoid it.

The SG of the Lapua 155 is lower than the 185’s
I will try again at 1,000 to see if the bad results are repeatable or whether I was having a bad day.
 
You won the cometition shooting the 155's at 900. At 1,000 you mentioned that the 185's "were all over" while the 155's were shooting X's. So, you are only using the 185's at 500. I don't think the 185's offer that much advantage over the 155's at 500, so why don't you just shoot the 155's all the way through? It sounds like they shoot good and they will stay together at 1,000, so why bother trying to make a bullet work that your barrel wasn't made for?

I think that if you spent as much time and effort learning to read the wind as you are trying to make the 185's work, you would be better off.

Just my $ 0.02
 
Trevor
Most of the IBS,NBRSA and Australian 1,000 yard benchrest records have been set using the 187 BIB flatbased bullets.
I am using 13.5 twist and 13.25 twist barrels right now and at 3050 fps they are shooting very well.
When the wind kicks up at 1,000 yards they are all over the map but when conditions are good they shoot great.
Right now we are limiting them to 600 yards as we get alot of switchy winds on the westcoast.
If your shooting at a club were the wind isn't switchy they shoot as good in the wind as the next bullet.
In switchy winds the low bc number lets them spread too much.
It sounds to me like your getting to close to the transonic region and they are simply opening up on you.It doesn't sound like they are keyholing just big ugly groups.
Can you get more velocity out of your current set-up or are you stuck in a 308 class rule?
If not Ackley Improve it and see what happens.
Lynn
P.S. You need alot of freebore with the flatbase bullets.
 
Like Lynn , I run the 187Bibs in a 13.5 twist .. I guess they are stable as i have recently been able to shoot 5 consecutive groups at registered 1000yds Benchrest comps at under 6inchs for 10 shots ,,My 6match agg is at 5.914ins for 2011 with more matchs to go ..I run them at 3300 fps .. Jr.. Jeff Rogers. pic of a 10 shot target
 

Attachments

  • Aus record target.JPG
    Aus record target.JPG
    76.6 KB · Views: 79
aJR said:
Like Lynn , I run the 187Bibs in a 13.5 twist .. I guess they are stable as i have recently been able to shoot 5 consecutive groups at registered 1000yds Benchrest comps at under 6inchs for 10 shots ,,My 6match agg is at 5.914ins for 2011 with more matchs to go ..I run them at 3300 fps .. Jr.. Jeff Rogers. pic of a 10 shot target

Jeff,
That is a very impressive group and even a more impressive agg I didn't realize a .308 could be so competitive at 1K,..Great Job.
Wayne.
 
Most of the IBS,NBRSA and Australian 1,000 yard benchrest records have been set using the 187 BIB flatbased bullets.
I am using 13.5 twist and 13.25 twist barrels right now and at 3050 fps they are shooting very well.

Like Lynn , I run the 187Bibs in a 13.5 twist .. I guess they are stable as i have recently been able to shoot 5 consecutive groups at registered 1000yds Benchrest comps at under 6inchs for 10 shots ,,My 6match agg is at 5.914ins for 2011 with more matchs to go ..I run them at 3300 fps .
.

Lynn, aJR,

what cartridge(s)?
 
Hi Laurie, I my case i use a modified 300Win Mag, (92 gn H20 capacity) with 78.5 gns of VV560 behind the 187BIB.. Not exactly a mild load but it seems to work OK..JR..Jeff Rogers
 
I have successfully shot 200gn Smks that are 1.400ins long in a 13.5 twist , that is, not great but still sub 1.750 in groups at 500 meters so they were stable and the books say NO.. I think the difference between a bullet that won't shoot worth a damn in a certain barrel and a bullet that is not stable are a world apart .. That said , i will continue to run the slowest twist that i can get to shoot great everytime and am willing to experiment with different twist rates to get there ..JR..Jeff Rogers
 
aJR said:
Hi Laurie, I my case i use a modified 300Win Mag, (92 gn H20 capacity) with 78.5 gns of VV560 behind the 187BIB.. Not exactly a mild load but it seems to work OK..JR..Jeff Rogers

Jeff,

interesting - a different approach from that taken to long-range benchrest in the USA and UK over recent years. Large thirties are far less popular than they once were, in fact I don't think we have any used in the UK in our small BR community. 6s, 6.5s and especially 7s have taken over other than in the 'Factory Sporter' class where we have .308s battling out with the odd 6.5X55mm rifle and a large number of Savage 12 F Class 6.5-284s.

On the 200gn SMK in a 1-13.5" twist, that doesn't surprise me unduly. Bryan Litz uses an OAL of 1.393" for his stability calculations. Run that through Miller at 2,800 fps (modest for a .300 Mag long-barrel match rifle?) and you get an Sg of 1.1 in the standard ballistic environment. While 59F may be a warm day for some of our 'summer' 1,000yd Diggle BR matches up in the north of England Pennines (you think I'm kidding, don't you?), I imagine you shoot in rather warmer air generally in Oz?

I used to run bullets that produced less than 1.1 Sg in a 1-13.5" twist .308W F/TR rifle. Problem was they sometimes worked and sometimes didn't at long ranges as we moved into the winter period and temperatures fell into the low 50s then 40s.

Despite what Bryan L says about stability actually improving at long ranges if the bullet is fully stabilised at short ones, I'm not convinced. There is an out of print Australian ballistics book that is sometimes quoted on forums that took a number of Sierra MKs and provides ideal twist rates by range. The 190gn SMK has a surprisingly slow ideal twist for 300yd, but (speaking from memory) tightens to 1-10 or 1-12 for 1,200yd. That's not to say the two authors of this book are right / wrong, likewise Mr Litz, rather that this ideal twist issue appears to have a great deal in it, and is in no way a simple matter.

For F/TR shooters like myself and the OP, I reckon the issue is about getting something that not only works, but works well at all ranges, and in all likely conditions. This may involve compromises for the one-rifle shooter. We're reaching the stage now in the UK where some top F/TR league contenders have two rifles in identical specs apart from twist rate and chamber throat, one optimised for the 155.5gn Berger, the other for the 210gn Berger VLD. Use is decided according to wind variability / difficulty on the day of the match. (Their belief is that the 155s hold elevation better at long ranges, but the 210s pay off in difficult wind where the points gained in reducing lateral movement outweigh the odd point lost through leaking out of the Bull vertically.) Personally, I find it exhausting enough carting one 18lb rifle plus rear bags and all the other paraphernalia around, without adding a second drag bag and 18lb rifle, not to mention the little matter of the cost of having two rifles, mounts and scopes.

Laurie
 

Jeff,

interesting - a different approach from that taken to long-range benchrest in the USA and UK over recent years. Large thirties are far less popular than they once were, in fact I don't think we have any used in the UK in our small BR community. 6s, 6.5s and especially 7s have taken over other than in the 'Factory Sporter' class where we have .308s battling out with the odd 6.5X55mm rifle and a large number of Savage 12 F Class 6.5-284s.

On the 200gn SMK in a 1-13.5" twist, that doesn't surprise me unduly. Bryan Litz uses an OAL of 1.393" for his stability calculations. Run that through Miller at 2,800 fps (modest for a .300 Mag long-barrel match rifle?) and you get an Sg of 1.1 in the standard ballistic environment. While 59F may be a warm day for some of our 'summer' 1,000yd Diggle BR matches up in the north of England Pennines (you think I'm kidding, don't you?), I imagine you shoot in rather warmer air generally in Oz?

I used to run bullets that produced less than 1.1 Sg in a 1-13.5" twist .308W F/TR rifle. Problem was they sometimes worked and sometimes didn't at long ranges as we moved into the winter period and temperatures fell into the low 50s then 40s.

Despite what Bryan L says about stability actually improving at long ranges if the bullet is fully stabilised at short ones, I'm not convinced. There is an out of print Australian ballistics book that is sometimes quoted on forums that took a number of Sierra MKs and provides ideal twist rates by range. The 190gn SMK has a surprisingly slow ideal twist for 300yd, but (speaking from memory) tightens to 1-10 or 1-12 for 1,200yd. That's not to say the two authors of this book are right / wrong, likewise Mr Litz, rather that this ideal twist issue appears to have a great deal in it, and is in no way a simple matter.

For F/TR shooters like myself and the OP, I reckon the issue is about getting something that not only works, but works well at all ranges, and in all likely conditions. This may involve compromises for the one-rifle shooter. We're reaching the stage now in the UK where some top F/TR league contenders have two rifles in identical specs apart from twist rate and chamber throat, one optimised for the 155.5gn Berger, the other for the 210gn Berger VLD. Use is decided according to wind variability / difficulty on the day of the match. (Their belief is that the 155s hold elevation better at long ranges, but the 210s pay off in difficult wind where the points gained in reducing lateral movement outweigh the odd point lost through leaking out of the Bull vertically.) Personally, I find it exhausting enough carting one 18lb rifle plus rear bags and all the other paraphernalia around, without adding a second drag bag and 18lb rifle, not to mention the little matter of the cost of having two rifles, mounts and scopes.

Laurie
[/quote]

Laurie,
Nice post, well put, gives several things and ideas to ponder over for sure, I have been shooting two rifles, one in hvy class one in the 17lb class and am in the process of building a 11 lb rifle for that class, that is a lot of lugging around as you mentioned, my Hvy rifle is not a true hvy rifle I might consider dropping it and use the 17 lb. rifle for both events?? well definitely something to ponder over, thanks.
Wayne.
 
I thought F/TR was created to offer a simpler, purer alternative to the arms races created by light gun and open classes where there is always a fancier rest, cartridge, scope, to give competitors a new edge. I thought the rules intended that competitors would take rifles ready for field use, limited to the basic 223 and 308 and let them compete without all the "competition specific" add-ons you see in other classes. But already I see fancy competition specific bipods. I see 30" barrels which would make any rifle unbearable to carry and maneuver afield.

BlueRidge,

while many agree with you that it may be less than ideal to see such development of F/TR, your take on it is a misreading of the F Class background. F Class (F for the late George Farquarson in Canada) was originally intended to allow older (and whoever else fancied the idea) Target Rifle shooters to continue in formal competition when eye deterioration, loss of stamina and strength in the limbs etc made them uncompetitive in traditional iron sights sling shooting. As such it was envisaged that people would take existing .308 TR, Palma etc rifles and shoot them off a rest or bi-pod and with optical sights. They would shoot alongside TR shooters using the same (large) targets. While this may seem a low cost discipline, it's not really as TR / Palma etc rifles are built to very high standards with as good quality components as bench rest kit, and as specialised single-shot rifles are far removed from an out of the box Remington 700 PSS or similar.

The F Class concept quickly appealed not only to the intended market, but to shooters of all ages and backgrounds and F was soon an abbreviation of 'Free' in that the minimum layer of rules and regulations would apply, to be a Formula One if you like of prone shooting, encouraging technical, optical, ammunition developments in the way that Bench Rest long has, but now in the context of prone shooting with each shot marked and all that this means in terms of extending the match time and coping with the resulting wind changes.

With the adoption of more powerful cartridges with better ballistics, .223 Rem and .308W soon became uncompetitive, hence the later introduction of F/TR to restore their own niche and protect them from wealthier shooters with 7mm short magnums etc. At the same time, the classes were differentiated by overall weight distinctions (18lb 2 oz for F/TR i/c bi-pod; 22 lb for Open but not including a bi-pod or front rest); and the mandatory use of a bi-pod in F/TR. The weight limit is very clever as users have to balance barrel length / profile / weight; bi-pod complexity / size / weight and scope size / weight - you simply can't have top specification of each of these and stay within the weight limit, generous though 18lb 2oz seems when you start out in this process.

There are lots of critics saying F/TR has just generated a new 'arms race', bi-pods should be restricted to 'Harris types' etc, etc - and everybody is welcome to their views. I'd answer these criticisms three ways - (1) Team Savage members such as Monte Milanuk who is a regular on this forum show that a well designed and built basic (factory, even) model is still competitive; (2) the objective of being lower cost than F Class still applies as even the most sophisticated of bi-pods is far cheaper than many of the front-rests that 'Open' shooters use and even hard pressed .223 and .308 barrels last a reasonable time compared to the life of those firing some of the short magnums; (3) the F/TR class has helped encourage the design and production of a new generation of thirty and .22 cal bullets, the adoption of new materials in and radical designs of bi-pods and stocks and so on. Look at where we are in handloading .308 - we're seeing a huge amount of experimentation, development and improvement that is feeding through to many non F/TR competitors. This was stifled pre-F/TR because of the ICFRA / Brit Commonwealth / Palma rules that said .308 Win only and bullets limited to 'less than 156gn weight'. (Many of our F/TR critics tell us that they can't afford Berger 155.5s or 185s at the UK price of nearly £50 a box and these should be banned too!)

On the issue of people with two rifles, I for one don't feel unduly disadvantaged by this. 155s and 210s produce very different rifle handling characteristics and even where people have had identical spec rifles built, I often wonder if they lose as much as they gain coping with two sets of behaviour on the firing point and two sets of bullet behaviour downrange. I and many others would rather keep things simple by sticking to one load, and trying to get the wind reading practice in.

I'm talking about national / international level competition here. I hear people say they can't afford to compete in F Class at club level because "you need this spec of rifle, that spec of bi-pod" ..... etc, etc, and there are demands to have the class dumbed down to suit what they own or think they'd like to own. I know a guy who is a top level F Class GB league shooter - he has embarrassed more than a few out and out F/TR shooters with a factory heavy barrel factory Remington last year - he didn't moan, got out onto the range and shot, and showed what talent, practice and handloading expertise can do.

There's nothing to stop clubs having an in-house factory rifle or tactical rifle based F/TR sub-class in competitions either if that's what their members want. After all many, if not most, club competitions are at 600yd and shorter distances, so the need for a 30" barrel custom rifle is much reduced. But when this issue is raised, the arguments often start - what is the maximum barrel length allowed? Are single-shot factory rifles like the Savage LRPV allowed or not? How do you define 'Harris type' bi-pod? etc, etc. There is a thread on the US Rifle Teams Long-Range Forum that raged for weeks last year over definitions and rules for a 'tactical rifles' sub F Class and didn't come to any final conclusions so far as I could see. A sticking point is that 'tactical' and even sporting rifles cover a lot of ground and can cost a modest amount or a great deal of money. What happens when a particular expensive Sako varmint rifle turns out to be unbeatable, or people turn up with £4,000 ($5,500) Alpine Unique tactical repeaters with £2,000 ($3,000) scopes on top? I would regard a Tubb 2000 as a very expensive specialised rifle compared to what I shoot in F/TR for instance. By keeping the rules open within very a broad framework, the T2K owner can get more use out of his or her rifle if it's allowed in and proves competitive in F/TR.
 
BlueRidge said:
I'm impressed by 2800 fps for a 185 grainer out of a 308. Even out of a 30" barrel I would find that smokin'!

I get ~2800 from Berger 185 BTLR in a 30" barrel, but only with Reloder 17.

Laurie,

Very well stated.
 

Upgrades & Donations

This Forum's expenses are primarily paid by member contributions. You can upgrade your Forum membership in seconds. Gold and Silver members get unlimited FREE classifieds for one year. Gold members can upload custom avatars.


Click Upgrade Membership Button ABOVE to get Gold or Silver Status.

You can also donate any amount, large or small, with the button below. Include your Forum Name in the PayPal Notes field.


To DONATE by CHECK, or make a recurring donation, CLICK HERE to learn how.

Forum statistics

Threads
166,254
Messages
2,214,984
Members
79,496
Latest member
Bie
Back
Top