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What makes an AR accurate?

I believe that an accurate AR requires a good barrel mounted on a heavy walled upper but how does the lower and the lower/upper fit affect accuracy off of the bench? The torque on the receiver bolts can affect a bolt gun's accuracy so I have to believe that stiffness and fit of the lower is a concern for accuracy.

How do I select a good lower and "tune" it to the upper in order to achieve the accuracy built into the upper?

Also, what effect does the gas system (long, short, piston) have on the accuracy?

Robert Whitley states that a gas block that attaches to the barrel using set screws negatively affect the accuracy of the barrel (and I believe him). Consequently, he uses gas blocks that clamp onto the barrel. What other components have similar affect on the accuracy of an AR?

Thanks for your insight,

Cort
 
I wish I could tell you because I built one and can't believe it is as accurate as it is. My best group so far is 5 shots into .260. Using Viht N133 and a 52 gr Sierra HPBT it always seems to get in the .4's. I built it from parts (my first attempt) as follows:

L.A.R. Billet side charged upper receiver, bolt group made by Young Manufacturing
White Oak Armament stainless steel barrel with match chamber & Varmint handguard
Timney 3 lb competition triigger
Leupold Mark AR 6-18X40 scope with Adjustable Objective
MagPul PRS stock and MIAD pistol grip.

It was accurate with the standard WOA Upper Receiver as well.

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Cort said:
I believe that an accurate AR requires a good barrel mounted on a heavy walled upper but how does the lower and the lower/upper fit affect accuracy off of the bench? The torque on the receiver bolts can affect a bolt gun's accuracy so I have to believe that stiffness and fit of the lower is a concern for accuracy.

How do I select a good lower and "tune" it to the upper in order to achieve the accuracy built into the upper?

Also, what effect does the gas system (long, short, piston) have on the accuracy?

Robert Whitley states that a gas block that attaches to the barrel using set screws negatively affect the accuracy of the barrel (and I believe him). Consequently, he uses gas blocks that clamp onto the barrel. What other components have similar affect on the accuracy of an AR?

Thanks for your insight,

Cort

These are just my thoughts about the match AR's. The upper is really the whole rifle, the barrel is full floating, the bolt and receiver is part of the mix and it is all just resting on the lower which is resting on a front and rear rest. even with a bit of slop between the upper and lower all the lower is really doing is providing the hit to the fireing pin. I admit this is a bit simplified. There are things which will greatly help the outcome such as the best trigger you can find, I like the Geissele match trigger, others like the Jewel, and I am sure there are other quality triggers out there. A good ridgid stock will sure help and there are quite a few choices. I use an "accu wedge" to try and take out some of the slop between the upper and lower, but to tell you the truth, I can't tell the differance in accuracy when the acccu wedge is removed.

I just put together a 6 mm AR with a 32 X scope primarily to shoot off the bench to play around within an attempt to see just how accurate I can get it. Since it was intended for bench rest shooting and I probably will only shoot it loading single rounds I even considered leaving the gasport out and eliminating the gas system altogether. Not sure how much if any that would help but I ended up leaving it as a semi auto.

To sum up my answer to your question, I do not think an AR can be conpared to a bench rest rifle any more than a bench rest rifle can be compared to the average out of the box hunting rifle. Careful use of quality components and proper assembly will usually be superior to lesser parts. The quest for accuracy is what keeps most of us interested in this game.

John
 
I built an AR to see how accurate it could be shooting off a bipod. My 26 year old daughter did best, after only shooting 15 rounds out of it, never having shot anything this powerful before. She put 4 rounds at 100 yards easily covered by a dime. I used a Krieger heavy barrel at 22" long and .920 muzzle diameter with 1:9 twist, and Geiselle trigger set to 2 lbs on stage 1 and 10 oz on stage 2. These two parts are critical to accuracy. Somehow, the gun shot that tight group with my daughter shooting PMC Bronze ammo.

I do think the fit between upper and lower makes a difference. Why? You are holding onto the lower. The rear bag (or hand) and pistol grip is part of the lower. The bipod or front forearm is part of the upper. This means the upper can swing side to side a bit. Sure, the point of aim on the scope is always locked solidly to the bore centerline, but if that scope/barrel is not solidly attached to what you are holding, then...?

As was already said, the things shoot remarkably accurately despite any slop. How, I am not sure. With these guns, technique, trigger, barrel, and developed loads can make it very accurate.

Phil
 
Have John Hollinger at White Oak build an upper for you. I don't think you'll find a more accurate set up. He built one for me, but I never pursued the service rifle venue and ended up selling it I did shoot it with a Rock River lower and it was the most accurate AR I ever shot. I shot a lot of these rifles in another life... Mostly M16's.
 
Cort said:
a gas block that attaches to the barrel using set screws negatively affect the accuracy of the barrel (and I believe him). Consequently, he uses gas blocks that clamp onto the barrel.
Clamp ones are definitely nicer and more reliable but have no adverse effect on accuracy. There are a lot of claims made by a lot of folks. If that claim is true, my rifles must not have gotten the memo.

JS
 
Feed it good ammo and most will do you a good job. my 1in9 Hbar likes 40 gr balistic tips. Some where I have a target with 4 groups, 5 shots each group, can be covered by 3 dimes and a nickel. Factory Colt rifle.
 
Here are some of my thoughts on putting together an accurate AR upper, all based off building up and test firing many hundreds of accuracy based uppers. True consistent accuracy is the sum total of a lot of details. This post does not address accurate ammo, which is a whole separate item. I would say this encompasses most of the big areas, but there clearly are more beyond this, but other that writing a book on the subject this will get you most of the way there.

There are a lot of things that can be done to an AR to enhance consistent accuracy, and I use the words "consistent accuracy" because consistency is a key part of it (i.e. plenty of guns will give a couple great five shot groups here or there, or with a break in between, but won't do very good 10 or 20 shot groups, and some guns will shoot great one day and not so good on others).

Some items we think are important:

1. A premium barrel, well machined with a good crown and a match type chambering, true to the bore and well cut, with the extension threads also cut true to the bore, and everything true and in proper alignment.
2. A gas block that does not impose pointed stress on the barrel (i.e. clamp on types that grab all the way around the barrel are excellent). The blocks that are pinned on with tapered pins that wedge against the barrel or the slip on type of block with set screws that push up from underneath (or directly on the barrel) can deform the bore inside of the barrel and can wreck the accuracy of an otherwise great barrel.
3. A heavy walled rigid upper receiver. The typical AR upper receiver was made for a lightweight carry rifle and they stripped all the metal they could off it to make it light to carry around all day (i.e. advantageous in military setting). The net result are upper receivers that are so thin you can flex them with your bare hands - they're strong but flexible strong - but not ideal for accuracy which does better with a more rigid upper receiver.
4. Truing the face of the receiver. Some may argue this point but it is always best to keep everything related to the barrel and the bore in complete alignment with the bore (i.e. barrel extension, bolt, upper receiver, carrier, etc.).
5. Loctite or glue in the barrel extension into upper receiver. This holds it in place all the way front to back in the upper receiver, otherwise if there is any play (and there typically is) it just hangs on the face of the upper receiver completely dependent on the face of the upper receiver as the sole source of support for the barrel as opposed to being made more an integral part of the upper receiver by being glued in.
6. A rigid free float hand guard (and I emphasize the word rigid). There are many free float hand guards and a free float hand guard is in and of itself is a huge improvement over a non free float set up, but best is a rigid set up. Some of the ones on the market are small diameter, thin and/or flexible and if you are shooting off any type of rest, bipod, front bag, etc., a rigid fore end is best since AR's want to jump, bounce and twist when you let a shot go, as the carrier starts to begin it's cycle before the bullet exits the bore.
7. Some meat on the barrel. Between the upper receiver and the gas block don't go real thin with a barrel (we like 1" diameter if it's workable weight wise). When you touch off a round and the bullet passes the gas port the gas system immediately starts pressuring up with a gas impulse that provides vibrations and stress on the barrel, especially between the gas block back to the receiver, a heavier barrel here dampens that. Correspondingly staying a little heavier with barrel contour through the gas block area and out to the muzzle is good for the same reasons. AR's have a lot going on when you touch off a round and the gas system pressures up and the carrier starts moving (all before the bullet exits the bore) so the more things are made a bit heavier and rigid to counteract that the better - up to a point of reasonableness of course).
8. On a gas system, the DI system is the way to go for accuracy (i.e. piston system is no good for accuracy - not even arguable as it provides mechanical moving parts that are moving and departing direct impulses and stresses on the barrel before the bullet exits the bore - not good).
9. A gas tube that runs freely through the barrel nut and through the front of the upper receiver and through the gas key in the carrier is not impinged by any of them so that it does not load the carrier in a stressed orientation, nor is it bound up so that when the gas tube pressures up it immediately wants to transmit more force and impulse to the barrel than would normally occur. We spend a lot of time sometimes taking the gas block with gas tube on and off "new build" uppers and "tweaking" gas tubes to get that best (and most gas tubes need a little "tweaking" to get them right - factory tubes go in and they work but they are typically not optimum without hand fitting).
10. Not over porting the gas port. Being over gassed makes the gas system pressure up earlier and more aggressively leading to more impulse, forces and vibration to the top end and barrel. Do what you need to function properly and adequately but no more.
11. Front/Back bolt play (keep it .003" but no more than .005"). If accuracy is the game, don't leave a lot of front back bolt play. We've seen factory rifles run .012" to .015", which is o.k. if you need to leave room for dirt, grunge, etc. like in a military setting out in the field, but not ideal for an accuracy build up. A lot of front/back bolt play makes it so rounds can be hammered into the chamber and actually re-sized and re-formed in a non-consistent way as they are loaded into the chamber.
12. Use good parts from a reputable source and watch out with "gun show" specials. All parts are not the same, some are good and some are not so good, and some after market parts are not only not good, they are bad. Don't be afraid to use a mil spec type carrier either, by and large they are excellent for an acccuracy build up, and just because a carrier says "national match" or something else on it does not necessarily mean it's any better. Be careful of chrome plated parts as the chrome plating can change the parts dimensionally and can also make it hard to do hand fitting and necessary stoning for fit and function.
13. A good upper/lower fit is helpful. For quick and dirty, an Accuwedge in the rear helps a lot. The ultimate is to bed the upper to a specific lower (with bedding stuck to the upper but release agent on the lower) so that the upper and lower, when together are more like one integral unit. For the upper receivers we have made for us we try to get the specs as close as we can, but still fit the mix of lowers out in the market place.
14. Don't screw up the muzzle (literally). Leave as much metal on the barrel at the muzzle as you can (i.e. stay away from 1/2" x 28 threads for an accuracy build and 5/8" x 24 threads are right on the edge, we like 3/4" threads for such attachments). People like to thread the muzzle for a flash suppressor, suppressor, muzzle brake, or some other attachment, but if you really want accuracy, leave as much metal as you can there and if you have something that screws on, set it up so that it can be put on and have it stay there without putting a lot of torque and stress on it right where the bullet exits the bore. If you are going to thread the end of the barrel, make it concentric with the bore and make sure what you screw on there is as well, and that the through holes where the bullet passes through are dead true to the bore (a lot of after market screw on things are not so good that way). Anything that vents gas should vent in a bilateral manner (i.e. if it vents left, it should vent equally right, and the for same up and down). Uneven venting of gas can wreck accuracy.

There are some more items on things like ammo, some tweaks for the lower, chamber design, etc., but time is short for me now and this post encompasses most of the big ones.

Robert Whitley
www.6mmAR.com
 
rcw3 said:
3. A heavy walled rigid upper receiver. The typical AR upper receiver was made for a lightweight carry rifle and they stripped all the metal they could off it to make it light to carry around all day (i.e. advantageous in military setting). The net result are upper receivers that are so thin you can flex them with your bare hands - they're strong but flexible strong - but not ideal for accuracy which does better with a more rigid upper receiver.

To expound on this a little....

The standard A2 style upper receiver is plenty strong. It's when the flat top came about that the upper receiver flex became a problem for precision shooters.

We got to chatting with Kino Davis who at the time was the GM for Vltor in Tucson, AZ. They had done some receiver flex testing and found that the standard USGI forged flat top upper flexed like crazy with the slightest pressure placed on the end of the barrel.

From these tests the VLTOR MUR series of uppers was born.

I'm a huge fan of these, although I have yet to build a precision AR. They're REAL forgings with 3 levels of heat treat. Specifically designed to limit receiver flex.... I had never looked closely at them before, because I'd assumed they were another Billet upper.
 
On the receiver flex issue, the flat top upper receiver is what I was referring to. No doubt the type with the built in carry handle is a bit stiffer. We had access to view some high speed films that were replayed in slower speed of AR flat tops being fired, and you could visibly see the standard flat top upper receivers bow and bend.

Robert
 
For sure... I forget how thin exactly the receiver is under the flat top rail.... but there's not much metal there at all.
 
all of my match ar uppers have either DPMS lo-pro or hi-rider thick walled receivers (they are the lowest priced besides being stiff) BUT ! i know of at least 3 shooters that i shoot with that are using standard A4 receivers that really hammer. and from the pictures i see Carl Bernosky shoots a WOA built AR with a4 receiver,nuff said. Byron
 
Many thanks for the comments. I think I know a good direction to go from all the advice you folks have shared. Uncle Sam has my name right now but the coffers will not always be empty ;-)

Cort
 
Very useful thread! I've been around M16s and ARs for a long time, but I have to admit that I learned quite a bit from this thread. If I had sat down and pondered on it long enough, I probably already knew some of this info - like the inherent flex in standard flattop receivers, but this thread made me actually think about it! :o
 
highmaster82 said:
. . . and from the pictures i see Carl Bernosky shoots a WOA built AR with a4 receiver,nuff said. Byron

The pictures you saw don't tell the whole story. The last time I was with Carl at a match and we went over his AR, his upper and lower were bedded together with bedding compound and when I discussed that with him, the concern in doing that was to try to stiffen things up for better accuracy. Carl is a supreme rifle builder and stock maker (he does that as his business - see www.CarlBernosky.com) and pretty much all his competition rifles represent a fair amount of re-work and tweaking he does on his own to get them humming the way he likes and needs them to be. With his rifles there's sometimes some not so obvious stuff "under the hood".

Robert
 
I went over Robert's site before building my AR and utilized as many of his tips as possible. I fulfilled all his points except #5 (did not know about this at the time) and #11 (not sure what this is or how to change). Yes, the gun weighs a ton (12.8 lbs w/no ammo), but it shoots well. I have not given it my own loads yet but expect it will do well. It would be useful if Robert could speak a bit on how best to "drive" this gun. My daughter outshot me after shooting just 14 rounds. I asked how. She said her archery instructor said the equipment will pretty much do the same thing every time. SHE had to be as consistent as well, and that is what she did shooting the AR (when I asked her how she shot that well). I guess I need to do the same. I am still trying to figure out how to manage the "hop" of the gun on the bipod.


Phil
 
Form back in the stone age, archers tend to avoid gripping the bow. I used to have recurve target bow that had a fully pronated grip, and used a strap that was designed to keep the bow from falling if I did not catch it fast enough on release. As I said, that was a looong time ago.
 

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