What makes a powder not shoot good

[CharlieNC]

Quick Load and Gordon's offer a plot of velocity along the length of the barrel as the bullet accelerates. I don't recall the details, but there was in depth discussion about interpreting this to assess good vs poor powder choices. Made sense at the time.

 

[30378]

All of the above and barrel harmonics. How your barrel reacts to a specific load.

 

[joshb]

Have you ever tried Barnes Match burners? They shot better than the Hornady and Sierra bullets in a couple 223s I load for. Maybe I got a good batch. Never sure of anything. I burned thru a lot of BLc2 over the years. Found H335 and it performed better for me. I still use BLc2 in plinking loads.
Try it with some 45 grain Hornady bullets near the Max end of the chart. I had some tight groups out of them in my Tikkas at 100.

 

[jelenko]

Brand new barrel less then 150 Rd though it. Have tried 748 before not a fan

Barrel from whom? Who did the chamber/finishing?

Do any of your rifles/loads shoot regularly 3/4 MOA or less?

 

[Just Say Moe]

Well like I've said I've tried it in a few different calibers already. My 17-5.56 , three different.223/5.56's all 1:7-1:8 twists 16-20" barrels 69-55 GR bullets and some more caliber I can quite remember.

All I know is I can have a load world up that shoots to wear I'm happy march that with bl-C 2 and now I got a soup sandwich of a group

BL-C(2) and 50 grain V-Max's in my 1-12 26" BOLT 223 with F205 primers. Heck on prairie dogs saying it nicely.

If/when I load for an AR15, it will be for bang. Too many variables for me to enjoy developing loads for them. Good luck!

 

[RED DIRT]

On a side note apparently this gun just don't seem to like heavier bullets just three together something with the same everything but changed our to a Hornady 55gr sp and boom probably on of the best groups of if this thing to date.... Which is weird because it shot hornady 55gr hollow point frontier factory ammo best out of anything else.... Weird but ok I guess
View attachment 1648119

"it shot hornady 55gr hollow point frontier factory ammo best"
So lets see a 5 shot group of this "hornady frontier factory ammo".

Questions:
How far are you bumping the shoulder back?
Do you full length size, or just neck size?
What`s your trimmed case length?
What`s your OAL?

Who built the barrel? Barrel length & twist rate?
How far off the lands are you seating the bullets? Bullet jump?
What do you shoot off from? Bench steady...bags front & rear, bipod?

You`re posting misc load data, but your severely lacking ALOT of important gun & reloading information.
I might have missed it in the thread, but i didn`t see anywhere what this gun even is.
How many different bullets and powders have you tried?

 

[Wolfdog91]

"it shot hornady 55gr hollow point frontier factory ammo best"
So lets see a 5 shot group of this "hornady frontier factory ammo".

Questions:
How far are you bumping the shoulder back?
Do you full length size, or just neck size?
What`s your trimmed case length?
What`s your OAL?

Who built the barrel? Barrel length & twist rate?
How far off the lands are you seating the bullets? Bullet jump?
What do you shoot off from? Bench steady...bags front & rear, bipod?

You`re posting misc load data, but your severely lacking ALOT of important gun & reloading information.
I might have missed it in the thread, but i didn`t see anywhere what this gun even is.
How many different bullets and powders have you tried?

It's lacking because the point of this post isn't to try and get solution to one load problem for one fire arm or one cartridge.
Trying to have a larger discussion on the matter in general. The second I start posting specifics then it's just going to turn into..... Well more of .... a load sharing post and I'm not after that.

Why do some powders shoot like crap and others shoot amazing. What what are some things that would cause a gun to like one over the other if you can get the velocities the same. Is there some kinda harmonic node to each power ? Are there different pressure differences that affect the bullets different is the little.powdee gremlin that lives in one can just more irritate then int the other ? Why does one powder just never work in anything and another just seems to work in whatever without much effort?So on and so forth

I legitimately curious beyond just getting ' the best' load combo..could get a load that shoots 1/4" all day or something and I'm still curious about the why

 

[Sandstorm]

Why does one powder just never work in anything and another just seems to work in whatever without much effort?So on and so forth

I dont think your going to get a clean answer to this from anyone . There are just too many variables.
I never try to make a powder work in a barrel and usually only go with what has worked in the past, so i certainly dont know but certain barrels prefer certain powders and that works fine for me...I find one that works and stick with it.

 

[jelenko]

I think you need to define what 'not good' means.
If 'not good' means it won't group less than one MOA, I would say that almost any powder that would be suitable for the specific cartridge would produce one MOA or less groups. By suitable I mean a burn rate and packing density that would produce 80% or better burnt powder and case fill. Assuming the rifle and shooter are capable.

For example, for 223 I would expect all of these powders to produce one MOA or less for a 69 grain bullet: 748, TAC, 2520, N135, N140, N133, N540, H4895, 8208, I4895, A2230, A2460, BLC2, H322, H335, H4064, MR2000, AR Comp, Varget, Benchmark, CFE 223, Ramshot X Terminator, SW AR Plus, SW Match Rilfe, SW Precision Rifle.

I'm sure there a bunch of others that would produce 80% or better burn and density for a 69 grain 223 bullet.

I think the same would apply if 'not good' meant wouldn't shoot 1/2 MOA or less.

I have no idea if you need .3 MOA or less.

 

[ELR LVR]

I think some of it has to do with the pressure curve and when it builds
which is best matched to certain bullet weights as well as barrel lengths
Pressure spiking quickly vs pressure building slower
vs pressure building correctly to match the bullet when near max charge
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Do people load down slightly? and it shoots like crap?
do people use slightly too heavy of a bullet and try to make faster powders work?
do people use too slow of a powder for a light bullet
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like others are saying, i think too many variables
which is why I like to try several different powders instead of dictating the powder the rifle is going to shoot
then theres powders I thought may never work and shoot like crazy good
Some powders I have tried on a whim simply because I had not tried a certain powder within the same burn rate as 2 or 3 others, and come to find my new choice should have been my first choice.
AA2520 is one of those powders that impressed the heck out of me
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Every powder is very slightly different even if on the same burn rate, in some way
unless it's just repackaged

 

[RED DIRT]

It's lacking because the point of this post isn't to try and get solution to one load problem for one fire arm or one cartridge.
Trying to have a larger discussion on the matter in general. The second I start posting specifics then it's just going to turn into..... Well more of .... a load sharing post and I'm not after that.

Why do some powders shoot like crap and others shoot amazing. What what are some things that would cause a gun to like one over the other if you can get the velocities the same. Is there some kinda harmonic node to each power ? Are there different pressure differences that affect the bullets different is the little.powdee gremlin that lives in one can just more irritate then int the other ? Why does one powder just never work in anything and another just seems to work in whatever without much effort?So on and so forth

I legitimately curious beyond just getting ' the best' load combo..could get a load that shoots 1/4" all day or something and I'm still curious about the why

I believe post`s #28 #29 #30 pretty much gave you the answer(s), as did a few earlier post`s.

I respectfully bow out of the tail chasing here.

 

[Wolfdog91]

I dont think your going to get a clean answer to this from anyone . There are just too many variables.
I never try to make a powder work in a barrel and usually only go with what has worked in the past, so i certainly dont know but certain barrels prefer certain powders and that works fine for me...I find one that works and stick with it.

Not really interested in a definitive cut and dry answer , just trying to have some conversation on the matter

 

[Herzo]

Have you ever tried Barnes Match burners? They shot better than the Hornady and Sierra bullets in a couple 223s I load for. Maybe I got a good batch. Never sure of anything. I burned thru a lot of BLc2 over the years. Found H335 and it performed better for me. I still use BLc2 in plinking loads.
Try it with some 45 grain Hornady bullets near the Max end of the chart. I had some tight groups out of them in my Tikkas at 100.

Avoid Match Burners at all cost!!! If shooters learn about them, there won't any left for me!

 

[joshb]

Guess I forgot to keep my mouth shut.

 

[Griffiga]

Sorry getting a little frustrated and also genuinely curious
So what exactly makes a powder just not shoot good groups ?
I have this can of BL-2 that I've tried in a few different calibers and rifles and for the life of me I cannot get it to shit a good group regardless of the bullet case ect ,if I use BLC-2 it seems a a good bet I'm gonna be looking at 2" groups at best . The crazy thing is though , the numbers will be good ! Like I've had multiple loads with S-D's of less then 12fps and velocities in the same ball park or matching a 3/4" MOA load with another power. Aaannnnnd they still shoot like crap with this powder so.... Idk what's the deal? How can a power just not work ?
I get it if the velocities where wildly different or something but when you can basically match everything...

Wolfdog91, I particularly liked your line "I have this can of BL-2 that I've tried in a few different calibers and rifles and for the life of me I cannot get it to shit a good group." as I have never been able to do that even after taking a good laxative. Or perhaps you meant to say your groups were $hit. Seriously though, my experience has taught me it has to do with burn rate, verses rifling twist, verses bullet weight, verses pressure. Powders that work in one gun aren't necessarily good in others. A good friend of mine has two identical rifles in identical calibers (I've often asked why), but one likes lighter bullets while the other heavier. I guess that's why they make so many different kinds. Just my two cents worth.

 

[Steve Donlon]

Your head must be spinning by now. There is a lot of great advice here. If I was in your position I would just get some IMR 4064 or IMR 4894 extruded powders and load some 69 gr. Sierra bullets or 77gr, 75 gr. bullets. You can fine tune them with different primers later. In fact, using those powders any primer from a CC! 400 to a Federal 205MAR will work just fine. Just try one thing at a time. there are no short cuts. Those powders are easy to tune, 4895 with a 69 gr. bullet 23- 24 grs, . 77-75 gr. bullet 4064 22-22.5 grs. If any of those don't work, it's not the load. With only 150 RDS shot, it will get better.