I'm very new to shooting and have been looking into calibers that retain alot of their velocity up to 500yards. A 22.250rem has high velocity up to 300 but loses a lot past that, while a 6mm 90gr has a lower starting velocity but retains alot of it out to 500. I'm going off of hornedys bullet charts for quick glance numbers off their factory loads for a general idea. Is the retention of velocity what makes a bullet more precise than another?
What makes a bullet precise out to great distances
- Thread starter Chris0llucero
- Start date
Oh sorry for posting in the wrong fourm so the higher the ballistic coefficiency the more precise the projectile? Or just less affected by wind
If you want the bullet to hit as close as possible to the same place as the one before it and the one after it, I’d say of the bullets:
a) the most important factor is that they lack any defect (malformity) that leads to an unpredictable deviation in flight;
b) the bullets have to be as alike as possible;
c) if the great distance implies that you can’t wait until the conditions are exactly alike, then high BC will help.
If the concern is only, or at least more so, that one critical bullet - one shot - not a string of bullets - hit as close to as possible where it is competently predicted to hit, so that you maximize the chances that you don’t miss at distance, then the bullet property priority would be:
a) ability to overcome unforeseen changes in the environment that occur after the decision to fire was executed, which is effectively nothing more than the highest BC attainable;
b) no bullet defect.
—-
** a bullet defect, such as a dent where the boat tail or ogive and body meet, might be replicated exactly “alike” on a string of 10 bullets but not result in them hitting the same place despite being all “alike” for among other reasons, that the rifle’s lands will sometimes engage and negate the dent, and other times, not.
Alike can overlap or be distinct from a defect in such things we encounter as small and different seating rings, meplat uniqueness, and jacket imperfections which don’t register on a scale, or any measuring device.
The best accepted example of where string fire or one shot must be answered first, is the bearing surface length. If you have a 1.50 G1 BC and a huge case with known MV for a single cold bore shot at distance, the bullet being exactly “alike” in bearing length to the next does not matter to you much at all. And differing bearing surface lengths are inevitable but aren’t a defect, though they are a measure of how alike bullets are.
a) the most important factor is that they lack any defect (malformity) that leads to an unpredictable deviation in flight;
b) the bullets have to be as alike as possible;
c) if the great distance implies that you can’t wait until the conditions are exactly alike, then high BC will help.
If the concern is only, or at least more so, that one critical bullet - one shot - not a string of bullets - hit as close to as possible where it is competently predicted to hit, so that you maximize the chances that you don’t miss at distance, then the bullet property priority would be:
a) ability to overcome unforeseen changes in the environment that occur after the decision to fire was executed, which is effectively nothing more than the highest BC attainable;
b) no bullet defect.
—-
** a bullet defect, such as a dent where the boat tail or ogive and body meet, might be replicated exactly “alike” on a string of 10 bullets but not result in them hitting the same place despite being all “alike” for among other reasons, that the rifle’s lands will sometimes engage and negate the dent, and other times, not.
Alike can overlap or be distinct from a defect in such things we encounter as small and different seating rings, meplat uniqueness, and jacket imperfections which don’t register on a scale, or any measuring device.
The best accepted example of where string fire or one shot must be answered first, is the bearing surface length. If you have a 1.50 G1 BC and a huge case with known MV for a single cold bore shot at distance, the bullet being exactly “alike” in bearing length to the next does not matter to you much at all. And differing bearing surface lengths are inevitable but aren’t a defect, though they are a measure of how alike bullets are.
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Matching the bullet to the barrel twist for stabilization
Ned Ludd
Silver $$ Contributor
Retained velocity and BC can certainly be related to precision, as they have an impact on a number of external factors that affect precision once the bullet has exited the barrel, a topic also known as "external ballistics". However, high BC alone does not guarantee good precision, as some known bullets with very high BCs and/or retained velocity seem to shoot poorly for most of the people that have tried them. Then you have the topic of "internal ballistics", which is a whole science unto itself.
No one can provide you with the level of input necessary to fully answer your question in a single post at a shooting forum. In fact, I would really call that a "journey", rather than a "question", and one to which some have devoted their entire lives. I would suggest you start with one of Bryan Litz' books, "Applied Ballistics for Long Range Shooting". It will provide you with a solid foundation upon which you can build.
No one can provide you with the level of input necessary to fully answer your question in a single post at a shooting forum. In fact, I would really call that a "journey", rather than a "question", and one to which some have devoted their entire lives. I would suggest you start with one of Bryan Litz' books, "Applied Ballistics for Long Range Shooting". It will provide you with a solid foundation upon which you can build.
Applied Ballistics For Long Range Shooting 3rd Edition
store.appliedballisticsllc.com
Jeff Porter
Gold $$ Contributor
I concur with Ned. Your are looking for the “Magic Bullet” that we all have been searching for. So many variables involved in launching a projectile over a great distance in our atmosphere. Litz book is a great place to start your understanding of the physics and science of a bullet in flight.
The elongated shape of high BC bullets increase the complexity of the mechanics of shooting them relating to stability, pressure, frictional risks to the bullet, and wear that changes point of impact.
The original and/or simplest projectile that attempts to minimize gas blow by is a round lead ball with no front that must be maintained in that orientation.
The complexity spectrum of kinetic “bullets” is really just the elongation of that ball, starting with the ball at one end, and presently ending with long, tungsten sabot penetrators, that must be fin stabilized and subcaliber because they are otherwise incompatible with both powder burn rates and barrel material.
**Your question on precision long range - the implicit first goal of all bullets made and shot would be landing from their “fall” exactly where predicted. (The second goal, inapplicable to competition, could be having a certain effect on the target). If we shot into a vacuum - no air between the barrel and target, let alone moving air, shape and density would be nearly irrelevant, and the bullet would not slow down at all until stopped, thus we really can’t overstate the role of cheating the (head)wind in bullet development, and BC is the distilled quotient of how a bullet cheats wind, to stay “precisely” on target. BC is a core concept. BC is for a velocity range, of course, and assumes a pristine example of that bullet. Our match bullets sit in the lower middle of the efficiency spectrum of projectiles propelled by powder, but near the pinnacle of what civilians are permitted to own, and while they are actually all very similar in that their velocities and BC vary by a couple tens of percentage points at the extremes, those differences they do have, consume endless hours.
The objectives of retaining initial energy, and bucking the wind, actually end up being one in the same thing, when designs are chosen, arriving at exactly the same form. If we look at that extreme right end of the spectrum, the penetrators are shaped to lose the least amount of energy possible between bore and the target. That shape turns out to resemble a pencil, and it really doesn’t matter what the material is, the form would take the profile of a sharpened pencil.
At high speed, all wind is headwind with just the very slightest left to right variances that cost most misses, (8 and 9’s) and tiny frontal pressure differences created by head or tailwind changes (9’s, mainly for low BC bullets) and possible but almost negligible vertical sheer, just to cover the bases.
The pencil shaped ogive loses the least energy through headwind. Shooters do have a harder time of maximizing high BC bullets, but I think that is more a function of their gear and their loading.
My theory for a major reason why secant ogive bullets are sensitive, is that we may “flat spot” part of that critical transition from ogive to body, that is not rounded off like on tangent ogive bullet. (Whereas tangent ogives are already almost “flat” at that same area of the bullet, thus less harmable.). We could either start it crooked, or we could touch seat such that it jams on ignition without much momentum, crunching, and deforms slightly unevenly. But if we don’t damage the bullet, it is a better shape.
The original and/or simplest projectile that attempts to minimize gas blow by is a round lead ball with no front that must be maintained in that orientation.
The complexity spectrum of kinetic “bullets” is really just the elongation of that ball, starting with the ball at one end, and presently ending with long, tungsten sabot penetrators, that must be fin stabilized and subcaliber because they are otherwise incompatible with both powder burn rates and barrel material.
**Your question on precision long range - the implicit first goal of all bullets made and shot would be landing from their “fall” exactly where predicted. (The second goal, inapplicable to competition, could be having a certain effect on the target). If we shot into a vacuum - no air between the barrel and target, let alone moving air, shape and density would be nearly irrelevant, and the bullet would not slow down at all until stopped, thus we really can’t overstate the role of cheating the (head)wind in bullet development, and BC is the distilled quotient of how a bullet cheats wind, to stay “precisely” on target. BC is a core concept. BC is for a velocity range, of course, and assumes a pristine example of that bullet. Our match bullets sit in the lower middle of the efficiency spectrum of projectiles propelled by powder, but near the pinnacle of what civilians are permitted to own, and while they are actually all very similar in that their velocities and BC vary by a couple tens of percentage points at the extremes, those differences they do have, consume endless hours.
The objectives of retaining initial energy, and bucking the wind, actually end up being one in the same thing, when designs are chosen, arriving at exactly the same form. If we look at that extreme right end of the spectrum, the penetrators are shaped to lose the least amount of energy possible between bore and the target. That shape turns out to resemble a pencil, and it really doesn’t matter what the material is, the form would take the profile of a sharpened pencil.
At high speed, all wind is headwind with just the very slightest left to right variances that cost most misses, (8 and 9’s) and tiny frontal pressure differences created by head or tailwind changes (9’s, mainly for low BC bullets) and possible but almost negligible vertical sheer, just to cover the bases.
The pencil shaped ogive loses the least energy through headwind. Shooters do have a harder time of maximizing high BC bullets, but I think that is more a function of their gear and their loading.
My theory for a major reason why secant ogive bullets are sensitive, is that we may “flat spot” part of that critical transition from ogive to body, that is not rounded off like on tangent ogive bullet. (Whereas tangent ogives are already almost “flat” at that same area of the bullet, thus less harmable.). We could either start it crooked, or we could touch seat such that it jams on ignition without much momentum, crunching, and deforms slightly unevenly. But if we don’t damage the bullet, it is a better shape.
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Chris, you are about start on a very long and convoluted journey. Follow Neds' advice to start.
I am 74, starting at your level of knowledge when I was 12. Six decades ago, we didn't have the media sources and access to the qualified experts that you do. If you are going to rely on the web for your schooling, figure out who is qualified to provide honest advice. This forum is loaded with titled shooters and smiths who are building rifles for them.
Like anything else in life, you get out of it what you put into. Get Bryan's book and dive in. Surf around on this site using the search function. You'll find more info than you can absorb.
I am 74, starting at your level of knowledge when I was 12. Six decades ago, we didn't have the media sources and access to the qualified experts that you do. If you are going to rely on the web for your schooling, figure out who is qualified to provide honest advice. This forum is loaded with titled shooters and smiths who are building rifles for them.
Like anything else in life, you get out of it what you put into. Get Bryan's book and dive in. Surf around on this site using the search function. You'll find more info than you can absorb.
you said BULLET PRECISION, not rifle nor shooter.
so it aint velocity, nor caliber nor weight as one item.
it is basically the same answer as drag racing...cubic DOLLARS, how fast do you want to go ?? how accurate do you want to be.
plinking, hunting, BENCHREST ( long and short range) and everything in between. so clearly define what you want then ask specific questions.
when it comes to bullets, there area few exceptions but HAND MADE CUSTOM bullets dominate lr and sr BENCHREST. PRODUCTION BULLETS TEND TO FALL OFF AS THE DISTANCE GETS LONGER OR THE TARGET GETS SMALLER.
JACKET QUALITY/UNIFORMITY FIRST, THEN THE Quality of the assembly.
berger is very close to hand made and do very well. all else is a step down.
maybe ok for short range large target or club matches or a begginer.
dollars and lots of them...oh and they have to work in your rifle
so it aint velocity, nor caliber nor weight as one item.
it is basically the same answer as drag racing...cubic DOLLARS, how fast do you want to go ?? how accurate do you want to be.
plinking, hunting, BENCHREST ( long and short range) and everything in between. so clearly define what you want then ask specific questions.
when it comes to bullets, there area few exceptions but HAND MADE CUSTOM bullets dominate lr and sr BENCHREST. PRODUCTION BULLETS TEND TO FALL OFF AS THE DISTANCE GETS LONGER OR THE TARGET GETS SMALLER.
JACKET QUALITY/UNIFORMITY FIRST, THEN THE Quality of the assembly.
berger is very close to hand made and do very well. all else is a step down.
maybe ok for short range large target or club matches or a begginer.
dollars and lots of them...oh and they have to work in your rifle
Retired shooter
Gold $$ Contributor
Gentlemen
If I may ask what is the most current version of Bryan Litz book?
Always willing to learn.
Thank you!!
Retired shooter.
If I may ask what is the most current version of Bryan Litz book?
Always willing to learn.
Thank you!!
Retired shooter.
Sandstorm
Gold $$ Contributor
Retired shooter
Gold $$ Contributor
Thank you Sir. I will get it ordered.
Retired but still learning!
Retired but still learning!
Any caliber is capable of retaining a lot of it's velocity to 500 yards. It just needs a high BC bullet.
G1 BC is a number that tells you the distance the bullet travels before it loses half it's energy. A BC of 1 means it goes 1000 yards before losing half it's energy. A 0.5 BC means 500 yards to lose half it's energy.
No. Ballistic coefficient does not equal precision.
The word "precise" with bullets only has nothing to do with downrange. It refers to the manufacturing tolerance of the bullet itself.
A precisely manufactured bullet may have a low BC.
dmoran
Donovan Moran
That is not at all true.....
G1-BC is not a representative of a bullets energy at said distances as your describing it.
Will suggest you do some reading / studying of ballistic coefficiency and how it is actually formulated and measured.
My 2-cents,
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" To a rough approximation, the BC can be
estimated as the fraction of 1000 yards over which a projectile loses half of its
initial kinetic energy. "
Ballistic Coefficients
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