What is the difference?

[Pan]

I just read at the front page about outstanding shooting with a 6-6,5x47. Now, how big a difference is there to this cartridge and the 6x47 Ruag, or the 6XC? If tolerances and throathing is done correctly, what can one do better than the other? At 700 yards, does theese tiny differences really matter? Would the shooter not be able to do this with a 6XC? And if he could, why bother with all theese wildcats? Every man his cartridge? Is that why?

Thanks for all replies,

Pan.

 

[jb1000br]

Pan that pic may help.

In the US, it really comes down to quality brass availability.

RUAG is a PITA to get here, and very expensive.

XC, has spotty brass availability with Norma as the only choice.

6.5x47 brass is available and the best part...LAPUA...and is easily necked to 6mm...

Performance among all of them will surely be within the noise of the difference between barrels.

JB

 

[DTubb]

JB,
To me that there is more to the differences between the 6XC and the Lapua 6.5x47,necked to 6mm).
As you say - The only brass available for the 6XC is Norma well same the same can be said for the 6.5x47 lapua. There is only one source.
Superior Shooting will have a 2nd source for the 6XC in near future that can't be said of the 6.5x47.
For all you case runout adherents- go measure a piece of the Lapua then a piece of the Norma and you will see there is no comparison.
There is no case preperation with the Norma 6XC brass,you will need to neck turn the 6.5x47 if you want less than .001" runout at the neck). The Norma is already .001" or less at the neck.

And if money is an issue the Norma is at least a dime cheaper for most.

The main difference,IMO) between the two is the small primer vs the large primer.
This difference can be argued till we all turn blue however the large primer was my pick for the case and I consulted a lot of knowledgable people in making the choice.

Regards,
DTubb

 

[jb1000br]

David -- fair enough...wasn't saying anything negative about either, just stating a few facts.

Glad to hear you will get some more XC brass in circulation. I wish you the best, and hope your knee is doing alright.

My fault for forgetting about the primer pocket/FH dims

The RUAG and XC do indeed take large primers, whereas the 6.5x47 uses small primers and the small 1.5mm flashhole.

Some people are having very good luck though with the small PP/FH...

and John Hoover is having pretty good results with his XC at 1K too...

Jason

 

[Buzzbee]

I just got my gun back from Dan Dowling chambered in 6mmX47. I’ll say, to me, it’s the small PP make this round attractive. Also the shoulder and neck dimension on the 6x47 Lapua is same as the 6BR, you can use the 6BR dies that you already have till the 6x47,if) becomes more available.

 

[Pan]

Thanks all for very informative answers!

Pan.

 

[chino1969]

How does the .243 A.I. stack up against the 6 X 47 Lapua? I know the 6 X 47 is more efficient and not the barrel burner the .243 A.I. is but is it worth the switch? I have a 6mmBR, several switch barrel .243 A.I.'s and have a hankering for a new barrel for my switch barrel rifle. What I'm looking for is a sales pitch for the 6 x 47 to convince me to try it.
Chino69

 

[rcw3]

I just wish Norma 6XC brass was as hard as Lapua 6.5 x 47 brass, otherwise the Norma 6XC brass is of good quality.

I have both a 6.5x47 Lapua and the 6mm version of it, and I have shot a significant number of rounds through both. I have not noticed any ignition issues with the small primer, and there are also no problems getting good and tight chrono numbers in terms of velocity, extreme spread and std deviation. With a case the size of the 6.5 x 47 Lapua, I question all this talk hinting that a small primer somehow leads to poor ignition. I am sure the designers, makers and testing dept. for the case at Lapua spent a good amount of time and research on this issue before just arbitrarily deciding to use a small rifle primer.

On thing I can say is you can really drive the bullets fast with the 6.5 x47 Lapua brass, whether it is a 6.5 or a 6mm version. With my 6mm, there is no problem going 3000 fps with bullets in the 105-107 gr range, and in the 6.5 version, 3000 fps is workable with bullets in the 120-123 gr range,i.e. Lapua 123 w/ .547 b.c., Sierra 123 w/ .510 b.c., Sierra 120, Berger 120 etc.).

Robert Whitley

 

[Buzzbee]

Has any one tried necking it down to .224 yet ? I would think it will make a decent .224 varmint round with equal or better performance of a 22-250.

 

[Pan]

But just to get a bottom line, none of the different cases have a superior design, besides small/large primers ), and what matters is the quality and availability of brass?

If so, necking 6,5x47 Lapua down to 6mm is quite understandable in stead of going for the RuagSM.

Thanks,

Pan.

 

[joesr]

In my opinion there will be little, on the target, difference between the 6.5x47 and the 6XC. The cartridges are all but identical.

The 6XC possibly is a better choice because of the coming availability of two brass suppliers, but that really is not a reason to pick a cartridge.

The one misconception many people seem to still have is that these medium sized 6mm cartridges are easier on the barrels. The problem with these cartridges that that you are forced to shoot 4350 or similar burning rate powders to get the best velocities.

My experiences with the 6XC proved that it was incredibly accurate. However, I never had a barrel go beyond 2000 rounds and I shot 5 Schneiders,1800 round average barrel life), one Pac-Nor,1200 rounds) and one Kreiger,1800 rounds).

When you go with a slightly larger case size,243 based) you are able to shoot H1000 or similar burning rate powders to obtain the same or slightly better velocities. What this does is extend the barrel life dramatically.

My current 6CM,243 based with 31 degree neck and slightly longer neck) barrel has over 3200 rounds through it and it still shoots 1/4 MOA at 200 yards,my testing range). This is with 115's at 3050 fps and 107 at 3100 fps. The last match I fired at 600 yards was a 200-11X and I'm not a great prone shooter.

Looking at the barrel with the bore scope I can see the throat starting to deteriorate, but it does not look as bad as any of my 6XC barrels at 1800 rounds. The fire cracking is not nearly as bad, but does extend much farther down the barrel. It is also noticeable that the lans are holding up much better,sharper and not near the ware up close).

My point is that you can get the same velocities and accuracy from a 6mm cartridge and get much better barrel life.

My suggestion to everyone who does not believe this is to build a 243 Win and shoot H1000 or N165 through it exclusively. There is a slight,and I mean SLIGHT) difference in accuracy with a standard 243 and the custom cartridges like the 6XC or 6CM. However, unless you are a world class shooter you will not notice the difference at 600 or 1000 yards.

What you find out is that your barrel last much longer.

Joe Hendricks

 

[Buzzbee]

I got a chance to shoot my 6x47 in the past few days, provide I have not worked up a load and the barrel is not settle down yet, but I don't think it will be as accurate as the BR.

 

[TonyZ]

Joe, i fully agree with your view. There has been a lot of claims made as to the hyperspeeds obtained with cartridges like the 6/6.5x47, but as to SD and ES, little data has been provided to convince me that there is an advantage to be had with this cartridge. Those that have shot serious group matches at LR know only too well that a small group of ten shots at 100 yds rarely turns into a competitive group at 600 or 1000 yds.
I like many others have a question mark over a small rifle primer having the ability to reliably ignite 40 grains of a slower burning rate powder through a wide range of temperature and humidity changes. As a side note i recall playing around with large rifle primers in a 6 ppc, back in the days when short range sheep shooting was more enjoyable than what it is now, the groups i was getting aswell as the low ES could not be matched by any of the small rifle combinations. Not conclusive as it was one barrel under one circumstance, but i was objective as i didn't have any expectations being green to the BR world even though i had already done a lot of wildcatting with an assortment of cartridges.
The point i have to make is that it is possible to get a 105/107 vld to 3150 fps at a push with slow, low flame temperature powders, like H1000, resulting in a ES in the single figures while extending barrel life with cartridges like you mentioned or something like the 6/6.5x55 i have done a couple of times. Why there is a fixation with doing the 6/6.5x47 at this speed using a 40+ grain loading of H4350, a powder with a very high flame temperature, is questionable. A low ES from either a 6/6.5x47 or any other cartridge at the same speeds give niether an advantage over the other excepting the illusion that short and fat is more accurate. If that were the case then the 90+ grain of H2O capacity cartridges dominating 6 and 10 match aggs in 1000 IBS/NBRSA,HG) shooting might put a hole in that bucket as most cartriges there are well beyond the 4.2 ratio that Jamison is suing over.
I can't see the sheep shooters replacing the 6 PPC with a 6/6.5x47, and i can't see the 1000 yd game being turned on its head by this cartridge, so the only place i think that it may make a position for itself is in the area of F Class where a 20 inch group at a 1000 yards is competitive, or at 600 IBS where one can hope that Dave Tooley and his 5.0+ ratio 300 BooBoo and 187 Bibs don't turn up.

Tony Z.

 

[Forum Boss]

I got a chance to shoot my 6x47 in the past few days, provide I have not worked up a load and the barrel is not settle down yet, but I don't think it will be as accurate as the BR.

Buzzbee,

Joel Kendrick won the two-gun Grand overall IBS 600-yd Nationals shooting the 6.5x47 brass necked to 6mm,with the shoulder pushed back to fit his 6x44 chamber). Jerry Simison has a version he calls the "Coyote" that shot some very small groups at that match. Joel says the Coyote looks very promising. So far, so good.

As to the potential for ignition problems--we haven't seen this so far, except for one gun that I know of... and that was traced to a firing pin spring issue.

 

[TonyZ]

Editor in Chief, just one question. How does a 6x44 using Lapua brass formed down, possibly to help ignition or ES, relate to someones observation with their own 6/6.5x47?
I am thinking that Joel Kendrick with his result has said more about the inability of a cartridge by using the base brass to form another. No-one is disputing the quality of Lapua brass in this instance, but the result says that there may be a better mousetrap.

Tony Z.

 

[Forum Boss]

Editor in Chief, just one question. How does a 6x44 using Lapua brass formed down, possibly to help ignition or ES, relate to someones observation with their own 6/6.5x47?
I am thinking that Joel Kendrick with his result has said more about the inability of a cartridge by using the base brass to form another. No-one is disputing the quality of Lapua brass in this instance, but the result says that there may be a better mousetrap. Tony Z.

Tony, I understand what you're saying. My point was simply that the limited results we have so,See Robert Whitley's posts) show the cartridge capable of great accuracy.

Joel pushed the shoulder back on the cartridge not so much to cure any perceived deficiency, but because his gun was chambered for a 6x44 wildcat he created before the 6.5x47 Lapua brass was available. As soon as it came into the country he started using it to form his brass. He's told me that, when his barrel wears out, he may rechamber with something like Simison's Coyote which is the 6.5x47 round necked to 6mm and slightly "Ackleyized" with a 35-degree shoulder.

Tony, you're right that only time will tell in terms of the accuracy. Can it beat a 6BR or Dasher consistently? Will it offer more barrel life than a .243? We don't know yet. But it certainly offers an exciting new option for 600yd BR and the high power crowd, both as a 6mm and a 6.5mm.

 

[joesr]

I am jumping up and down!

The moderator said "will it offer more barrel life than the .243"

Two years ago the .243 was considered a barrel burner.

I can not take all of the credit, but finally the population is starting to understand that using the correct powders the 243 has a good barrel life.

Now my next project is to get everyone to see that when you improve the 243 to look like a a 6BR or 6XC, just bigger, it is just as accurate.

I know that the top shooters don't care about barrel life. But the the send tear of shooters does care and it makes a difference in the wallet.

But that is not the most important part of this....if you have a barrel that really shoots and you can shoot it for 3000 rounds rather than 1500 rounds you don't waist the time in developing loads and testing. Once you find a load you can put a good barrel away and shoot it in the important matches for several years.

Possibly that takes all the fun out of the game.

Joe Hendricks

 

[Buzzbee]

I got to shoot a few more rounds today before I ran out of day light. I'm still in the process of breaking in the barrel, so not pushing anything yet, I loaded 3 rounds of 65g Vmax with 37.5g of Varget, primed with 6 1/2 that I had on the shelf,12year old). They went 3552, 3546, 3548, made a 1/2" cluster. The next 3 I loaded with 37.5g of R15, same bullet and I got 3602, 3598, 3589, the group is a tab smaller this time. So far, I'm not impressed with the velocity I'm seeing as I can get that with 6BR burning less powder. The condition is near perfect with 1~2 mile cross wind, 52o, shooting a Hart 26", 1-10" on a Panda. I'm off to SD to chase prairie chickens in the next few days, I'll report with my progress in later part of next week.

Buzz

 

[Pan]

Mr.Hendricks,

Thanks for very good answers! Very interesting! I always thought slower burning powdewrs burned barrels faster, not so, I understand. So in your opinion, the .260 Rem makes a better coise than the 6,5x47 Lapua?

Thanks,

Pan.

 

[Forum Boss]

Mr.Hendricks,

Thanks for very good answers! Very interesting! I always thought slower burning powdewrs burned barrels faster, not so, I understand. So in your opinion, the .260 Rem makes a better coise than the 6,5x47 Lapua?

Thanks,

Pan.

I know this question is not directed to me but I have a lot of experience with the Rem 260. I would say it is a better choice for the 139-142gr bullets IF you Ackleyize it,260 AI). By all indications, with the 108-123 grain bullets, the 6.5x47 will yield similar accurate velocities as the Rem 260, with a better choice of out of the box brass. The new Berger 130 is the question--we don't yet know whether it can go fast enough with the smaller case.