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What is ELR Anyway?

If this is true, then as soon as the wind stops, then the relative wind travelling over the bullet from forward flight would straighten it again, putting the drag force once again in line with the mean trajectory, and there would be no more drift.

Not exactly. They're right that the drag is the source of the source of wind deflection. If it were not, there's no way that BC would predict wind deflection, and it does.

But... F=ma. There's no velocity in that equation - only the *rate of change of velocity*, otherwise known as acceleration. Once a bullet acquires a lateral velocity, it wants to keep it in absence of a force that either decreases it or increases it. If you remove the wind, the drag force remains, but there is no longer a sideways component. Since there is no lateral force to slow the bullet down, it will continue to deflect sideways at constant speed.

That is the point mass version of reality (the model that the Sierra program in Bart's post uses). It's a little more complex than that in real life, but it's a very good approximation.
 
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Not exactly. They're right that the drag is the source of the source of wind deflection. If it were not, there's no way that BC would predict wind deflection, and it does.

But... F=ma. There's no velocity in that equation - only the *rate of change of velocity*, otherwise known as acceleration. Once a bullet acquires a lateral velocity, it wants to keep it in absence of a force that either decreases it or increases it. If you remove the wind, the drag force remains, but there is no longer a sideways component. Since there is no lateral force to slow the bullet down, it will continue to deflect sideways at constant speed.

That is the point mass version of reality (the model that the Sierra program in Bart's post uses). It's a little more complex than that in real life, but it's a very good approximation.
Put your eyes behind a set of Kowa Highlanders and watch the bullets going to 1000 yards. It shows what they do. I have seen them go 5 feet left and then 5 feet right and back left again. I have also seen them just curve left or right. Matt
 
Put your eyes behind a set of Kowa Highlanders and watch the bullets going to 1000 yards. It shows what they do. I have seen them go 5 feet left and then 5 feet right and back left again. I have also seen them just curve left or right. Matt
Holy crap, that is a lot of movement to 1K. If you're hammering the same target shot after shot, you could get a grip on it, but if you were trying to hit a 15" plate in 3 shots, a recipe for disaster.
 
Put your eyes behind a set of Kowa Highlanders and watch the bullets going to 1000 yards. It shows what they do. I have seen them go 5 feet left and then 5 feet right and back left again. I have also seen them just curve left or right. Matt
I was not questioning this Matt, I respect your observations and opinions. I've seen this plenty at distances past 1350 yards more than once. And heavy 7mm and 30 cal bullets can retain vertical composure. I have IPSC's set at 1350 and 1450, I do know if a 6mm bullet even traveling at 3100 fps crosses the plane at those distances and gets blown back by a right wind, it's going over the target. And it really messes with a guys head because now you do not trust your up dope. Everyday is a new day, lol
 
I'm gonna use Sierra software to plot the horizontal path a Sierra 200 grain HPMK leaving 3000 fps with a 10 mph wind from 12 o'clock, then the same wind an hour later each 100 yards through max range at 2000 yards where sight zero's set for. It's gonna look like a snake's footprint in the sand.
 
I was not questioning this Matt, I respect your observations and opinions. I've seen this plenty at distances past 1350 yards more than once. And heavy 7mm and 30 cal bullets can retain vertical composure. I have IPSC's set at 1350 and 1450, I do know if a 6mm bullet even traveling at 3100 fps crosses the plane at those distances and gets blown back by a right wind, it's going over the target. And it really messes with a guys head because now you do not trust your up dope. Everyday is a new day, lol
I shoot at Williamsport and its on top of a mountain. The wind there does funny things at times. In sighter periods I have shot when the flags have completely reversed and sometimes it doesn't effect you much. I have done the same thing at other times and you would be off paper. Our targets are 5 feet wide. Sometimes you don't see any change and you go 5 feet. I have had many people ask me what to watch and I tell them you can't read this range.

I have shot most 1000 yard BR ranges in the country and this is the hardest range to shoot on. Probably the next worst range to try and read is Hawks Ridge in North Carolina. Matt
 
Here's my wind chart showing the same bullet going through 2000 yards of 10 mph wind constant from 3 o'clock and starting at 12 o'clock at zero range, then coming from 1 hour later for each 100 yards down range to 2000 yards. Bullet is Sierra's new 200 gr. HPMK with about .660 to .715 G1 BC.

Inverted Wind 90 & Circle.jpg
 
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I have seen them go 5 feet left and then 5 feet right and back left again.
If bullets go that far to both sides of the line of sight to a thousand, I think wind speeds were well up to perhaps 20 mph on both sides of the line of sight.
 
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I'll start by saying I'm no long range expert but I do have some experience having won a couple annual seasons of steel matches out to 1450Y and our only ELR match in that club.

My friend and his shooting range is most of the way up a hill. Keeping it short, I've seen bullets do the weirdest things there, but not just there, also at the place where the steel match I mentioned was held which is also up a hill.

I'm not just talking about the horizontal aspect but also the vertical. The worst example in this respect went like this....

Keep in mind that for both examples I used the same rifle and ammo out of the same bin of handloads, and shot at the exact location, on the same steel. The rifle was a $3000 M700 all out custom in 6x47L with a 5-25 S&B scope on top.

The first day I thought my scope had broke. It was windy, like 15 mph or so, the wind was somewhat gusty and coming from say 10:00 to 11:00. The result was I was using twice the windage usually needed for those conditions and I was hitting .5-.6 mils high and missing the 550Y ram I was aiming at which is my friends closest steel on that part of the range, which isn't a far shot, right?! The same thing happened with the rest of the farther steel I shot at??? I stopped and contemplated the why's but blamed my scope.

Wanting to try to confirm a scope problem before I sent it back for repair, only 4 days later, I confirmed my zero then cold bore shot the ram in the middle, like usual, and went on to hit the rest of the steel with the dope SHOOTER app gave me, which normally happens.

Me, logically thinking to myself about the first day, was...okay I get that maybe there was something wrong with my scope tracking "elevation wise", but how was it I had to "hold" twice the windage which makes no sense as far as something being wrong with the scope??? After shooting 4 days later I concluded the scope was not broke and has worked fine since.

At the location where the steel match was held I would always check my zero to make sure it was on. There were more than a few times my dope was off when it should not have been, after all I had practiced a couple times earlier in the week with no head scratching moments going on. Anyway, we shot at each steel twice in this match, this being a dusty area we could see our misses in the dirt most of the time. On certain windy days I had to hold bottom of steel and more wind than usual to make hits??? I asked the other competitors if they were experiencing what I was and they agreed they were hitting higher too.

A mystery... of course we would think the bullet would be doing the exact opposite of what I described so my only idea is the wind coming almost straight into the big wide hill we were shooting from had created a vortex updraft pushing the bullet up, and put twice the push to the right on the bullet.

The friend that owns his shooting range has told me that they have shot plenty of tracers in the past during snow cover at extreme distances for the sheer fun of seeing what they do, and he describes watching them on windy days as similar to watching a roller coaster.

All I'm saying is there are anomalies that happen and some seem to be wind induced.
 
Visualising terrain effects on wind takes a lot of practise , and a lottery
sometimes without the benefit of popping smoke ! Shot my 22 to 550
yards last week , that’s certainly ELR . Also shot my 300 NM to 2530
yards 2 days before that : NM was 123 ish MOA elevation , 22 was 126
MOA to 550 .
 

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