What do you consider the perfect anneal?
- Thread starter jrm850
- Start date
Just started annealing myself so my opinion might not be worth much ! 
Personally, I don't put any of the Tempilaq where it will be contacted directly by the flame. A little dab of green INSIDE the case neck and a small dab of white (450)about halfway between the shoulder and the base. When the green melts and I have a bit of a rainbow below the shoulder/body junction, I call it done. Seems to be working. And I only do that on enough cases in a batch to figure out the necessary time. Others may do it differently. I have only had one case where I have gotten the copper colored necks you have. Wonder why that is?
Personally, I don't put any of the Tempilaq where it will be contacted directly by the flame. A little dab of green INSIDE the case neck and a small dab of white (450)about halfway between the shoulder and the base. When the green melts and I have a bit of a rainbow below the shoulder/body junction, I call it done. Seems to be working. And I only do that on enough cases in a batch to figure out the necessary time. Others may do it differently. I have only had one case where I have gotten the copper colored necks you have. Wonder why that is?Xhuntress said:Just started annealing myself so my opinion might not be worth much !
Those cases with the copper showing are just previous experiments gone wrong. They have been over annealed before. I just use them for checking heat travel. I built a prototype of a very portable, battery powered, butane annealer with a case feeder that appears to do a remarkably good job. The cases can spend a bit more time in the heat soak at a little lower temp. I was worried that the base was getting close to the 480 mark because the case spends 10 seconds in the flame, but it's not even close, even if I don't quench in water.
I usually do put some inside the neck. I was just trying to identify specific heat travel points with the stripes; kind of a better overall picture of what's happening once it gets below the char of the direct flame contact. The neck do not glow at all. I'm confident that I'm holding it between 700-800 for a few seconds.
Slow burn time but it can be used with a case feeder or collator.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SoF0KhqZ1cE
Slow burn time but it can be used with a case feeder or collator.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SoF0KhqZ1cE
Joe R
Gold $$ Contributor
Without seeing what the brass looked like before annealing it is difficult to make a judgement. They look OK to slightly overdone to me. But they seem very usable.
I've been annealing for over a year and have done about 4-5k .308 cases, so I think I've got it down pretty good, but I'm no expert. I've never used tempilaq because I watched the YouTube videos and all the machines are driven by time not temperature. 5 seconds for most brass will do it, Lake City brass takes 6 seconds. I've never had a split neck and I have 8 firings on some of my brass.
Here are some pictures. I aim the tip at the neck/shoulder junction. The drill get heavy after a while so make sure you've good ergonomics working for you.
Attachments
sparky123321
Silver $$ Contributor
The color or look of the brass means nothing when annealing. Only the temperature reached matters. So many reloaders new to annealing overcook their brass trying to get it to look like new Lapua brass.
I guess what I was asking in the original post was more results oriented than process oriented. i.e.- 'I think the perfect anneal will heat the neck and .1" below the shoulder to 750f for 5 seconds and to never let a point 1" up from the base exceed 450f.' I read some that say the shoulder should never be annealed, but if we are bumping shoulders each time we reload I would think it would make sense to want uniformity of change here too.
One of the issues that seems apparent to me is that temp/tensile curve is very steep starting at about the 625f mark and starts to flatten out at 925ish where the grain growth starts to ruin brass. Since we pick a temp point on that steep part of the curve, it would be somewhat analogous to picking a powder charge between two nodes. The process control would have to be exact to have any chance of repeatable results. Any change in environmental variables will alter lot to lot consistency. We also know that we can anneal at those lower temps, but it takes some time for the grain structure to get uniform. We can speed up that process by increasing the heat, which brings up the million dollar question... How hot for how long? Are we getting a thorough anneal if we take it to 750 for 1.2 seconds? If we extrapolate the tempilaq data from the body of my test cases we get a thermal delta of roughly 700f per inch. The 750f line is is roughly .125 from flame center, so for arguments sake (disregarding important info like radiant surface area and the reduced mass per linear distance of the neck vs body) the hottest part of the neck reached a peak temp of roughly 837f for a brief period of time. Too hot?
One of the issues that seems apparent to me is that temp/tensile curve is very steep starting at about the 625f mark and starts to flatten out at 925ish where the grain growth starts to ruin brass. Since we pick a temp point on that steep part of the curve, it would be somewhat analogous to picking a powder charge between two nodes. The process control would have to be exact to have any chance of repeatable results. Any change in environmental variables will alter lot to lot consistency. We also know that we can anneal at those lower temps, but it takes some time for the grain structure to get uniform. We can speed up that process by increasing the heat, which brings up the million dollar question... How hot for how long? Are we getting a thorough anneal if we take it to 750 for 1.2 seconds? If we extrapolate the tempilaq data from the body of my test cases we get a thermal delta of roughly 700f per inch. The 750f line is is roughly .125 from flame center, so for arguments sake (disregarding important info like radiant surface area and the reduced mass per linear distance of the neck vs body) the hottest part of the neck reached a peak temp of roughly 837f for a brief period of time. Too hot?
CatShooter
"What do you consider the perfect anneal??"
I have been annealing cases for 45 years, and there is no "Perfect" anneal"!... or there are infinite "Perfect" anneals, depending on your point of view.
There are two reasons to anneal cases - first is prolong case life by preventing split necks, and to that end, "Any anneal is better than no anneal". And that's the truth.
The second reason is to achieve uniform grip on the bullet for uniform release to assure consistent velocities and low ES's.
There are no standards in cases hardness, Lapua, Lake City, and Winchester are at the hard end, and Remington are at the soft end... Lake City and Lapua are TWICE as hard as Remington, so you can't go by them.
You can't judge by the color of the neck/shoulder, cuz that has little to do with anything.
The cases on the left, and those on the right were all heated (by propane torch) during the same annealing session - for the same time, to the same temperature, and they are the same make (R-P). The only difference was the two groups of cases were made several years apart, and one group had been washed and one group had not.
Color on the body is also not an indicator.
Most people wold throw the case on the left in the trash, assuming that the head was now soft.... years ago, I did.
But when I bought a hardness tester, it opened my eyes - the head on both cases is exactly the same hardness...
I heat my cases so the necks are a dark red for 4 to 6 seconds, and then drop them on crumpled aluminum foil so they can cool.
Keep this in mind:
1 - You will not ruin cases by heating them too long.
2 - Heating them to red heat will not ruin them.
3 - there is a very wide range of temperatures that annealing takes place, not a narrow window.
4 - So stop being Anal Compulsive and get on with it.
5 - The people that scream that you will ruin your cases if ... (fill in the blank), have no idea what hey're talking about - they heard it from someone that heard it from someone, who made it up cuz it made them sound important.
Happiness is a warm stack of annealed cases....
I have been annealing cases for 45 years, and there is no "Perfect" anneal"!... or there are infinite "Perfect" anneals, depending on your point of view.
There are two reasons to anneal cases - first is prolong case life by preventing split necks, and to that end, "Any anneal is better than no anneal". And that's the truth.
The second reason is to achieve uniform grip on the bullet for uniform release to assure consistent velocities and low ES's.
There are no standards in cases hardness, Lapua, Lake City, and Winchester are at the hard end, and Remington are at the soft end... Lake City and Lapua are TWICE as hard as Remington, so you can't go by them.
You can't judge by the color of the neck/shoulder, cuz that has little to do with anything.
The cases on the left, and those on the right were all heated (by propane torch) during the same annealing session - for the same time, to the same temperature, and they are the same make (R-P). The only difference was the two groups of cases were made several years apart, and one group had been washed and one group had not.
Color on the body is also not an indicator.
Most people wold throw the case on the left in the trash, assuming that the head was now soft.... years ago, I did.
But when I bought a hardness tester, it opened my eyes - the head on both cases is exactly the same hardness...
I heat my cases so the necks are a dark red for 4 to 6 seconds, and then drop them on crumpled aluminum foil so they can cool.
Keep this in mind:
1 - You will not ruin cases by heating them too long.
2 - Heating them to red heat will not ruin them.
3 - there is a very wide range of temperatures that annealing takes place, not a narrow window.
4 - So stop being Anal Compulsive and get on with it.
5 - The people that scream that you will ruin your cases if ... (fill in the blank), have no idea what hey're talking about - they heard it from someone that heard it from someone, who made it up cuz it made them sound important.
Happiness is a warm stack of annealed cases....
CatShooter
jrm850 said:"... and starts to flatten out at 925ish where the grain growth starts to ruin brass. Since we pick a temp point on that steep part of the curve... "
There is no reason to presume that the brass is ruined - how is it ruined - what are the signs and symptoms.
To the contrary, there are very good reasons to heat above 950°
When you heat above 950°, you are in the flat zone - a steady state of hardness/softness is reached, and time or temperature is no longer critical - all your cases come out the same, even with process variances.
You can't ask for better conditions than that - why in God's name would you put your goal on a steep slope that cannot be controlled without profuse applications of silly paint, which then has to be removed ???
Put your process on the flat part of the curve - it is sane engineering practice.
CatShooter said:
I appreciate you sharing your experience.
CatShooter said:
Will the tester work on a sectioned piece of brass from the neck or does it have to be thicker?
CatShooter said:
Haha, A collection of accuracy enthusiast.... this place is like an Anal Compulsive Anonymous meeting.
CatShooter said:
I guess ruined may not be the right word for it, but what I call ruined is if I can seat a bullet, pull the bullet, and then reseat it by hand with very little neck tension. That may not be a bad thing for one discipline, but dangerous in others.
CatShooter said:To the contrary, there are very good reasons to heat above 950°
When you heat above 950°, you are in the flat zone - a steady state of hardness/softness is reached, and time or temperature is no longer critical - all your cases come out the same, even with process variances.
You can't ask for better conditions than that - why in God's name would you put your goal on a steep slope that cannot be controlled without profuse applications of silly paint, which then has to be removed ???
Put your process on the flat part of the curve - it is sane engineering practice.
True for Ductility and Tensile, but the grain density curve is flatter in the generally accepted heat zones and takes a dramatic spike around that 925 area. Does that matter? I don't know yet.
The silly paint gives the layperson a pretty hard number to work with. - sane engineering practice.
CatShooter
jrm850 said:CatShooter said:
I appreciate you sharing your experience.
CatShooter said:
Will the tester work on a sectioned piece of brass from the neck or does it have to be thicker?
It will work on thin sections - I am collecting a bunch of cases from my "rogue's gallery" to test. I also have a fairly good IR thermometer. I will first test a large piece of sheet brass with silly paint, to use as a base line, cuzz polished metal does not always read accurately with remote IR readers.
CatShooter said:CatShooter said:
I guess ruined may not be the right word for it, but what I call ruined is if I can seat a bullet, pull the bullet, and then re-seat it by hand with very little neck tension. That may not be a bad thing for one discipline, but dangerous in others.
I have seated and pulled many bullets, and then reseated with different loads, with no problems - try it. I have NEVER seen brass go that dead soft as to not have spring in it.
CatShooter said:To the contrary, there are very good reasons to heat above 950°
When you heat above 950°, you are in the flat zone - a steady state of hardness/softness is reached, and time or temperature is no longer critical - all your cases come out the same, even with process variances.
You can't ask for better conditions than that - why in God's name would you put your goal on a steep slope that cannot be controlled without profuse applications of silly paint, which then has to be removed ???
Put your process on the flat part of the curve - it is sane engineering practice.
True for Ductility and Tensile, but the grain density curve is flatter in the generally accepted heat zones and takes a dramatic spike around that 925 area. Does that matter? I don't know yet.
The silly paint gives the layperson a pretty hard number to work with. - sane engineering practice.
CatShooter said:
I am really interested to see the results on the thin sections. lot to lot Consistency at the different temps would be something useful for everybody and I haven't found that info anywhere. It only makes sense that somewhere in the flat part of the curve will be the most forgiving. I'll try some at 950 too.
CatShooter
jrm850 said:
Do some in a semi dark room, tip of the torch on the neck, with the necks going to a dark red glow for 4 to 6 seconds...
... then play with them. Seat bullets, and pull them, reseat more and pull them... you will see how nice they are.
And shoot some too (that is the best part).
michaelnel
Old and In The Way
CatShooter said:
Wow, I sure have. I was doing my 6br brass for about 4 seconds in the flame in my Benchsource (has two torches). I made the mistake of thinking I was not over-annealing them.
Then I was adjusting my Wilson die with a different bullet and seated one a little too deeply. I pulled the bullet with my inertial bullet puller and reseated the bullet with the Wilson. Went to measure it with the calipers and ogive comparator and found that the mere motion of measuring it seated the bullet deeper. "WTF", says I, and I found I was able to easily push the bullet deeper with my fingers.
I resized that case and seated again and it felt normal to me again. I fired that batch of brass five times and the spring back returned. I no longer anneal them that long, in fact 700 degree silly paint applied inside the neck recommends only about 2 1/2 seconds, so that is what I do now. They don't have the pretty Lapuaesque rainbow colors, but the neck tension seems right.
Oh, I was sizing them with a .002" difference between the bushing and the neck OD of a loaded round.
jnyfeler
Gold $$ Contributor
Back when I annealed by hand, I over annealed some brass. It got so soft that the firing pin striking the primer would actually bump the shoulder back on the cartridge case. It was a light load, so the head of the case didn't slap up against the bolt face under recoil.
Then, on subsequent loadings of that batch of brass, I eventually started getting misfires due to excessive headspace -- the firing pin wasn't reaching far enough to detonate the primer.
Haven't had that problem with the Ken Light annealer.
Jeff
Then, on subsequent loadings of that batch of brass, I eventually started getting misfires due to excessive headspace -- the firing pin wasn't reaching far enough to detonate the primer.
Haven't had that problem with the Ken Light annealer.
Jeff
CatShooter: can a properly annealed case be "annealed" again after only one firing? I read how many "anneal after each firing" . my impression is that annealing restructures the "latticework or whatever" of brass after it changes. Does one firing produce enough change to warrant the process? Thanks.
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