WHAT AM I DOING WRONG

[dipstick]

I bought a new Cooper in .222 Rem this spring. I wanted to load the best ammo I could for it even though it is not a bench rest gun. So I bought Lapua brass, a Wilson neck sizing die, and a Wilson seating die.

The gun shoots ok, but I think it can do better, based on my experience with several other .222's. When I check concentricity, I find the neck sizing die actually increases run out .003. Once fired brass shows .001 run out on the neck after firing. After neck sizing with the Wilson die, the run out is .004. I didn't expect this. My old RCBS FL sizer only increases the run out to ~ .0025 when I leave the expander ball left loose and well lubed.

I did lightly lube the necks with Imperial sizing wax before sizing in the Wilson die.

I turned the necks before loading. I cleaned the necks both inside and out after firing and before doing any measuring or sizing.

Currently I can load more accurate ammo with by FL RCBS sizing die than I can with the Wilson dies.

What am I doing wrong with the Wilson dies?

 

[dedogs]

Since you said that you neck turned this brass, I'm going to assume you trimmed all the brass to the same length even though you didn't mention it. How far are you reducing the neck diameter, i.e. from fired diameter to seating diameter?

 

[Patch700]

How are you using the neck die.. With a mallet or with an arbor press?
Sometimes people get rammy when drifting the case out with the ejector pin and wind up holding the die too close to the bench so when the case comes out it actually hits the bench at whatever angle you are holding the die at when you strike the ejector pin.

Also try sizing a couple without the bushing to see if you are possibly oversizing the necks in one pass.. Eg: trying to squeeze fired cases that measure .253 and using a .247 bushing..

Good luck

 

[dipstick]

Thanks for the replies.

Didn't even think about trimming to length. I'll look at them and try it. Turning was really only "cleaning" them up as they were already fairly good. Original neck thickness varied approximately .001.

Using an arbor press and a .248 bushing. I will measure the diameter of a fired case when I get a chance. The loaded rounds measure just under .250"

 

[wolley]

There is a reason German Salazar doesn't subscribe to bushing dies.

 

[CatShooter]

Aside from the runout differences, how do the two groups of ammo actually shoot.

The rifle may not (probably doesn't) have the ability to shoot the difference, in which case it is all for naught.

 

[243winxb]

The chamber is not inline with the bore, so neck sizing doesnt work. Get a Redding body die to use with the Wilson bushing.

 

[DOGCAPPER]

Try running the casein your neck die, pull out and give 1/2 turn run in second time. Cant hurt to try. LT

 

[South Pender]

The chamber is not inline with the bore, so neck sizing doesnt work. Get a Redding body die to use with the Wilson bushing.

But OP says that R/O is only .001 on just-fired brass, so that it's the die that's the problem, not the rifle's chamber/bore alignment (if that's what you meant).

Not a real solution, but I wonder whether, once you've seated the bullets using the Wilson seater, the total R/O, using the bullet as the reference-point, might be corrected somewhat.

 

[bigedp51]

dipstick

Your dies are telling you what works best.

Take your full length RCBS die and remove the expander and spindle assembly, resize a case and measure runout. I'm betting the runout will be the same or better than your fired cases. A full length die supports the entire length of the case as it is sized making it more uniform on its entire length and why you are getting lower runout numbers.

I do not have any Wilson neck sizing bushing dies but they work the same way as my old Lee Loader neck sizing dies did. I read your posting yesterday and started Googling your Wilson die for information.

I think the Wilson die does not support the body of your case as well as a full length die. Meaning side to side slop or excessive clearance between the case and die.

A bushing die does not work well with large diameter factory chambers and if the neck is compressed over .005 it can induce neck runout. I was very disappointed after buying a Forster neck sizing bushing bump die because it produced about the same results you have posted.

I get the least amount of neck runout using Forster full length die with its high mounted expander that floats and is still centered in the neck of the die as the expander enters the case neck. Meaning the neck of the case is NOT pulled off center like lower mounted expanders do when not centered.

After watching a few videos last night it looks like the Wilson die does not have a floating and self centering bushing. And it looks like it lacks body support meaning the body of the case is not a snug fit in the Wilson die. But you can try reducing the neck diameter in two steps using two different bushings and see what happens.

Watch the video below, what got me was he stated he can't use the high quality bench rest arbor press because of the "force" required to size the neck????? And this goes with reducing the neck over .005, and his Harbor Fright arbor press leaves much to be desired.

Wilson Neck Die
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EnR0ZbeJ2Ag

 

[mikecr]

Why are you using sizing wax on the necks?
Have you cleaned the bushing of it & tried sizing without the lube?

Believe me, Wilson bushing dies are plenty capable for producing loaded cases 1thou TIR or under, as measured off seated bullets. It could be the die, but it would be my last suspicion.

 

[Alex Wheeler]

What you are seeing is normal, that's what bushing dies do. The bushing floats so how would you expect it to stop the neck from sizing off center? The good news is concentricity doesn't mean squat when it comes to group size. Test it for yourself.

 

[SS427]

I suspect you are focused on the wrong issue. Runout is one of the last things I worry about. What sort of loads have you tried? I would try other bullets and powder before I would look at the dies.

Not sure why, but my runout with brand new brass is always worse then after I reload the brass a few times. Might want to try the Wilson dies again. My Wilson dies always produce the least runout of any of my dies.

 

[bigedp51]

What you are seeing is normal, that's what bushing dies do. The bushing floats so how would you expect it to stop the neck from sizing off center? The good news is concentricity doesn't mean squat when it comes to group size. Test it for yourself.

If you notice in the video link I posted the bushing didn't fall out of his Wilson die and had to be tapped out. But when he took the die apart I saw what looked like black powder residue at the top of the die.

So question, does the Wilson bushing float or is it normally a snug fit in the die.

 

[mikecr]

bigedp51, I get the impression that you don't know anything about inline bushing dies.
Have you ever used them?

 

[bigedp51]

bigedp51, I get the impression that you don't know anything about inline bushing dies.
Have you ever used them?

I get the impression your ego is bigger than your ability and you have reading problems. I my first posting in this thread, post #9 I clearly stated I did not have a Wilson neck sizing bushing die. But I also get my worst runout from the Forster neck bushing shoulder bump die.

I also full length resize all my rifles except my Enfield rifles with their oversized chambers. And I get LESS runout with full length dies and factory chambers.

Below are my photos of just part of my .223/5.56 dies, so I'm wondering if your related to fguffey and just can't read.

 

[mikecr]

I don't have a problem making straight ammo using inline bushing dies.
So I'm left to think that your experience with completely different type of dies has led you to weak notions about the subject at hand.

There is a real reason for the results OP is seeing. We can find it better if we focus on causes instead of folklore.

 

[bigedp51]

I don't have a problem making straight ammo using inline bushing dies.
So I'm left to think that your experience with completely different type of dies has led you to weak notions about the subject at hand.

There is a real reason for the results OP is seeing. We can find it better if we focus on causes instead of folklore.

You need to do more reading and far less posting.

Two-Step Sizing and Case Neck Concentricity
by: Germán A. Salazar
http://riflemansjournal.blogspot.com/2010/04/reloading-two-step-sizing-and.html

"This article's title refers to two-step sizing, a term that may not be familiar to all, so an explanation is in order. When sizing with bushing dies, such as the Redding Competition and Type S dies, it is well known that a neck diameter reduction of more than 0.005" should be accomplished in two steps, with each step sizing the neck down no more than 0.005" and preferably less (see October 2009 article about neck tension). This two-step procedure not only minimizes sizing die induced concentricity deterioration, but it also yields a finished neck diameter equivalent to the bushing's nominal size. It is often found that when using a single bushing to size more than 0.005", the finished neck diameter is smaller than the bushing's nominal size. Those are the basic reasons for two-step sizing."

The biggest complaint I read about on the internet about bushing dies are by people with off the shelf factory rifles and neck runout. Meaning a bushing die is better off with custom small neck chambers and this isn't folklore but does deal with your lack of knowledge and your oversized ego.

The link to Germán A. Salazar's article above confirmed WHY I was getting MORE runout using my Forster bushing die in one sizing step. And why the full length die produces LESS runout when resizing in a single operation. My runout gauge doesn't read and measure folklore.

Now drop the attitude and read up on the subject before shooting off your mouth.

 

[LRPV]

The bushings in a Wilson neck are allowed to float a little. I don't believe bushing dies should only be used for small or tight necked chambers as when used with a chamber with correct dimensions they work just fine. They are probably not optimal for for oversized chambers, for the reason mentioned above. My choice, if I had one, would be a full length die that closely fits the actual chamber and has the neck portion honed out to the needed diameter. This type of die has produced the straightest cases for me.

 

[bigedp51]

The main reason I posted the Wilson video was the bushing was not loose and had to be pushed from the Wilson die. I looked up the dies instructions and it states the bushings do "NOT" float so now I wonder if the the die is the cause of the problem and defective.


INSTRUCTIONS FOR THE WILSON INTERCHANGEABLE BUSHING NECK DIE
http://www.lewilson.com/images/NeckDie.pdf