What am I doing wrong? What would you change? More info added

[calgarycanada]

Sorry it is a repeat question, so if you hate repeat questions here's your chance to leave.

Loading for .308,
Loading technique: fire formed large primer lapua cases, annealed, cleaned, sized with either Redding body die + Lee collet die or Forster full length sizing die(I have tried both setups with no change in results), checked for case length(all within couple thou), ran Lyman M die mandrel through necks, spun brush with steel wool in the necks, ran cases over nylon brush to clean any residue, lubed necks with dry lube, cleaned/uniformed primer pockets, seated 210M primers using RCBS universal tool or Forster press(have tried both, like the press seated but no change in results), weighed each load of varget using charge master & double checked with Gempro 250, seated coated 215 Berger bullets with Forster seater, checked for BTO lengths and concentricity.
We shoot on Silver mountain electronic targets so we get residual velocity data. Last time I had 7 elevation shots, more highs than lows. I checked the velocity and sure enough it was high for highs and low for lows, I'm talking 30 fps down for lows and 50 fps up for highs. As long as velocity stayed with 20 fps of average shots landed on waterline and as soon as velocity changed more than that, elevation appeared.
Worth mentioning, I had very consistent velocity and elevation for several shots in a row and then suddenly one just went way out. So it's intermittent/random not a trend.
Naturally I blamed on case volume, got home and measured all and ones with good ones, no difference (less than .1 gr case to case).
In past(not with this barrel), I have tried CCI Br primers (still have CCI) but I couldn't get them to work in 308(bad groups) or try 215M primers? Can't find any Wolf at this time.
What would you do? Do another load development with CCIs or 215s or try something else in loading technique?
Thanks a lot in advance

Edit to add more info
I cleaned cases in vibratory tumbler with corn cob.
*I trimmed the brass once with Forster trimmer, it's on 4th firing, at that time I chamfered with Lyman tool. I usually only chamfer if trimmed. Plus M die helps in concentricity. I have checked concentricity on multiple loaded rounds and it's within a thou or two.
*I load night before match.
Bullet seating die doesn't have crimp function so that's not a concern.
*I have not weighed cases or primers(never heard of weighing primers) but as I mentioned in op, I have checked case volume compared to good (elevation)brass & volume is spot on, ie within 0.1 grain.
*I haven't sorted bullets either but I do check BTO length after seating for 20% random ones and they are usually within a thou.
*I'm jumping bullets 15 thou. And bullets are well out of possible dounut area of case.
*I don't have a reliable chronograph, I tried Caldwell but it was giving weird (under 2000 fps) velocities at 10 feet. I fiddled with it a little and then gave up on it. I'm thinking about lab radar but it's big investment for my budget.
Not sure how accurate electronic targets are for residual velocity but all elevation shots came up with higher or lower velocity numbers so I think they may not be accurate as to actual velocity number but they gotta be close when it comes to shot-to-shot velocity difference.
*Rifle is a savage action with 30" bartelin barrel.
* I do neck turn brass with 4 thou total clearance
* Bump shoulder 2 thou
* Neck tension/grip or whatever experts call it these days, is 2 thou
* Firing pin spring has been replaced earlier this season(Wolf) and protrusion has been measured to be at 58 thou.

 

[zipollini]

Just a few thoughts.

You don't need to dry lube the necks before seating the bullet if you are spinning a brush with 0000 steel wool inside the neck.

How and when are you chamfering the inside of the neck ?

Weighing cases ? Weighing primers ? Measuring and sorting bullets by bearing surface or BTO ?

How are you cleaning cases ?

What do you estimate your SD and ES to be ?

 

[J-rod]

how close to the lands are you trying to get? I had this problem when I was trying to "just touch" or </=.005" out. A slight variance in the bullet or a spec of carbon would add pressure and do just what you mentioned.

I doubt it makes a difference but I always clean then anneal...I got weird visual results if I annealed then cleaned. Never tested it on the target but the mind is a powerful thing

 

[J-rod]

Also, how long are you shooting these rounds after you load them?
I either load then long and set correct OAL the night before or load up the night before. For me, the dry lube significantly reduces the chemical bonding I get and therefore the increased pressure associated with it.

 

[Keith Glasscock]

How old is your firing pin spring? Bad primer strikes can cause some of the problems you mention.

Also look at your primer seating. Same reason.

 

[msinc]

Maybe check and make sure your seating die is not adjusted just shy of a bullet crimp??? If so a very slightly longer case at the mouth could be getting snugged down when it don't need to be. You say you checked case length, but don't say how you trimmed the cases if you even had to yet. Still, if they are all within a couple thou then there should be no inadvertent crimp.
When I load, if I know I will not shoot for like a week I rub a small amount of Imperial wax on my fingers that I handle the bullets with. I don't touch the base and I never use more than a very little bit on my fingers. I have never had it contaminate the powder because I have not seen any dropped velocities. I do see that it helps the SD and ES a little. What I have never been able to figure out is that some of my best groups were also the ones with the most ES/SD. Likewise, some of the mediocre ones were those that were chrono'ed within 5-8fps.

 

[Scott Harris]

An 80 shot fps spread is pretty huge. What are you using to measure velocity? As mentioned, check for mechanical issues with your rifle: the firing ping spring being the first suspect. Make sure you are chamfering the case mouths. You do way more work spinning and cleaning the necks that I do. I simply run a plastic bore brush thru the neck once to remove any build up. I dry tumble in corn cob, so a little residue remains as lube. 6-7 SD over 20 shots with a lot less work.

Another thought, try some 200 hybrids and see if they give you better SDs...I don't know much about the 215s and how reliable they are. There are many possibilities, you'll need to work your way through a check list. Here are a few off the top of my head:

chamfered necks, proper seating depth...either in or out but not in between (seating right on the lands can cause big variations in velocity), consistent neck lubricity/tension, consistent primer seating, adequate striker energy, consistently weighed charges, accurate chronograph, etc...

 

[22BRGUY]

How much are you bumping shoulders back? If .002 try .003. It made a nice difference for me in one rifle.

 

[jkl]

The down range speeds seem to vary on my SMT. Some times they make you smile and other times it drives you nuts. Mid Tompkins has a set of 4' ohler screens. Mid was going to test them in front of the SMT at 1000 yards. Then compare the SMT chronograph to see what both show when it cools down. Let you know how it turns out. 112 at my house today a little warm yet.

Everything Scott said to try won't hurt anything. I watched. 100 10X with less than 10 feet difference in down range speed at 1000 in June on the SMT. 308 lapua brass H4895 and 155.5's

John

 

[ireload2]

Did you actually proof read what you wrote?
What is your group size?
Most of what you wrote is not intelligible.
Do you really think you can troubleshoot everything via some sort of electronics that may or may not be calibrated?
Have you ever gotten decent results with your barrel, your rifle or your scope?
Do you know for a fact that the 215 grain bullet is not too long for your twist?

I am afraid that your troubleshooting skills need some basic improvement.
First of all brass is 8 time heavier than powder. That means that variations in the weight of the brass change the volume only one eight as fast as the same weight of powder. In other words a grain of powder takes up about 1 CC of space in the case. It takes 8 grains of brass to take up the same space.

Sorry it is a repeat question, so if you hate repeat questions here's your chance to leave.

Loading for .308,
Loading technique: fire formed large primer lapua cases, annealed, cleaned, sized with either Redding body die + Lee collet die or Forster full length sizing die(I have tried both setups with no change in results), checked for case length(all within couple thou), ran Lyman M die mandrel through necks, spun brush with steel wool in the necks, ran cases over nylon brush to clean any residue, lubed necks with dry lube, cleaned/uniformed primer pockets, seated 210M primers using RCBS universal tool or Forster press(have tried both, like the press seated but no change in results), weighed each load of varget using charge master & double checked with Gempro 250, seated coated 215 Berger bullets with Forster seater, checked for BTO lengths and concentricity.
We shoot on Silver mountain electronic targets so we get residual velocity data. Last time I had 7 elevation shots, more highs than lows. I checked the velocity and sure enough it was high for highs and low for lows, I'm talking 30 fps down for lows and 50 fps up for highs. As long as velocity stayed with 20 fps of average shots landed on waterline and as soon as velocity changed more than that, elevation appeared.
Worth mentioning, I had very consistent velocity and elevation for several shots in a row and then suddenly one just went way out. So it's intermittent/random not a trend.
Naturally I blamed on case volume, got home and measured all and ones with good ones, no difference (less than .1 gr case to case).
In past(not with this barrel), I have tried CCI Br primers (still have CCI) but I couldn't get them to work in 308(bad groups) or try 215M primers? Can't find any Wolf at this time.
What would you do? Do another load development with CCIs or 215s or try something else in loading technique?
Thanks a lot in advance

 

[calgarycanada]

Thanks for the replies guys, much appreciate it. I'm updating OP to add any info requested.

 

[calgarycanada]

Did you actually proof read what you wrote?
What is your group size?
Most of what you wrote is not intelligible.
Do you really think you can troubleshoot everything via some sort of electronics that may or may not be calibrated?
Have you ever gotten decent results with your barrel, your rifle or your scope?
Do you know for a fact that the 215 grain bullet is not too long for your twist?

I am afraid that your troubleshooting skills need some basic improvement.
First of all brass is 8 time heavier than powder. That means that variations in the weight of the brass change the volume only one eight as fast as the same weight of powder. In other words a grain of powder takes up about 1 CC of space in the case. It takes 8 grains of brass to take up the same space.

Ok, I accept that I'm not as smart as some of you guys and that's why I'm asking question. I didn't wanna write an assay to explain my problem so I tried to make it as compact as possible and still provide necessary info.
Let me try and make it more "intelligible"

Group size at 200 meters (that's all I have available for testing)at 3 different range trips were well below 1/2 moa, between 0.3 to 0.4 MOA.
Group size for good elevation shots upto 800 meters were solid 1/2 MOA, add elevation shots and it was more than 1.5 MOA.
Yes I'm sure twist rate is good for 215s, barrel is Bartelin with 10 twist and our range is approx 4300 feet above sea level.
Yes, hard to trust electronics but when results coincide with numbers it's hard to not believe them either.

I'm not sure if I follow your analogy of brass weight vs powder weight? If two pieces of brass have exact same internal volume (forget about rest of the variables for a moment) than equal amount of powder should produce same velocities in both cases. But obviously that's not happening and hence why I'm wondering about other variables. What does that have to do with brass weight taking up less volume?

 

[Scott Harris]

In your edited data, you say you don't have a reliable chronograph. Yet, you are using an 80 fps velocity spread to justify the elevation shots. Without a good chronograph(magneto, oehler, labradar), the velocity data is not usable. Find someone to help you out and get more reliable data. Also, shoot a 20 shot string and get the SD on it. This is more valuable than 3 & 5 shot string data. If you can hold 10-ring over 20 shots at 1000 yards, that is pretty good.

The wind can and does cause a lot of elevation at 1,000 yards. This is why it is so important to have accurate chrono data....it's not biased by the wind. But, it is biased by crappy chrono gear.

 

[Shaggy357]

My friends and I have a spot where we varmint shoot 800+. We take a 10" gong to smack at 1000 yards. Elevation is similar to your 4300 feet. In the last year, I can name only two or three times where someone kept all of their shots in 1.5 moa at 800 and beyond. Wind variability, temperature, and humidity all play a role. If you are in Calgary, the rolling plains in that area can help you understand what you are shooting thru....watch the grass thru a spotting scope at 2, 4, 6, and 800 yards or meters. You will likely see wind movement in the grass in different directions and different speeds. Sounds to me like your variations are more ecologically explained than statistically explained.

Varget in most of my guns like WLR or Rem 9 1/2 primers. CCI 200 and Fed 210 didn't group near as well.

You might be able to do better, but to me, you are doing pretty darn good already.

Good luck,

Steve

 

[calgarycanada]

In your edited data, you say you don't have a reliable chronograph. Yet, you are using an 80 fps velocity spread to justify the elevation shots. Without a good chronograph(magneto, oehler, labradar), the velocity data is not usable. Find someone to help you out and get more reliable data. Also, shoot a 20 shot string and get the SD on it. This is more valuable than 3 & 5 shot string data. If you can hold 10-ring over 20 shots at 1000 yards, that is pretty good.

The wind can and does cause a lot of elevation at 1,000 yards. This is why it is so important to have accurate chrono data....it's not biased by the wind. But, it is biased by crappy chrono gear.

Sorry I wasn't clear enough, velocity data was all taken from electronic targets. It could be coincidence But any shot (good called shots)that had too elevation showed up with different velocity from the shots that landed in 5 ring. Another interesting thing is all high shots had higher velocity number and low shots had lower velocity number and that's why I believed those numbers.
Now someone may argue that position of the shot may have caused electronic target to show different velocity, which is totally possible. Until I check my ammo with reliable chronograph it's gonna be a mystery I guess.
Thanks to everyone who replied and messaged.