weigh cases by internal volume or by total weight?

[memilanuk]

thats what i want to improve: my vertical. I hate vertical problems at 1000, because I could be killing it and then those fliers show up!!!

You do know that some of that is still going to occur due to things going on down range with the wind, right?

 

[gilmillan1]

I do understand wind is an issue but i was referring to those shots made during the same wind conditions.

 

[memilanuk]

My point is that its very possible that they *weren't* under the same conditions - you may have just missed the change. Speaking from painful experience here. Wind and/or mirage will cost you far, far more points than case volume ever will, vertical as well as side-to-side.

But if you want to volume test your cases, more power to you. Should be a fun exercise... for about the first 20 cases

 

[Brians356]

Water has air bubbles

I've never seen indications of any, but I do tap the side of the case a few of times, once the water reaches the base of the neck, to encourage any bubbles to detach from the case wall and float up - just for peace of mind, you understand.

Besides, if water weighs very consistently, it means either a) any bubbles remaining are forming with nearly exactly the same net volume every time, or b) there are no bubbles of significance. I leave it as an exercise for the reader to decide which is more likely.

 

[memilanuk]

Brian,

Water fresh out of the tap almost assuredly has bubbles. If you let it set for an extended period of time, it will de-aerate to some degree. Another option is to zap it in an ultrasonic cleaner for a while. If you've ever played with one of those, you may have noticed that the initial bubble formation is very energetic initially, then dies down. Thats the excess air that is entrained in solution being worked out. Starting out with distilled water, poured carefully so as to not entrap any additional air might be another way to minimize the issues.

Monte

 

[Brians356]

thats what i want to improve: my vertical. I hate vertical problems at 1000, because I could be killing it and then those fliers show up!!!

My hunch is sorting cases by volume isn't going to eliminate vertical flyers. There are too many more likely causes than slight variance in case volumes. However, culling out any cases which are grossly different than the rest might be worthwhile, but deciding which are culls is a judgement call I wouldn't feel like making, but might be obvious to someone else.

I don't measure case volumes much, myself, and do it for other reasons, like comparing one lot or make of brass to another, or to produce an input variable for QuickLoad. But I don't do any shooting target shooting beyond 200 yards, so I probably live a sheltered life.

I rather like Erik's idea of using the POIs to segregate cases. I would be inclined to mark any case that produced an obvious flyer, and see if it repeats the performance a second time.

 

[Joe R]

gilmillan1 said:

I have a hydro bullet seater coming on the mail. Maybe that will do the trick.

It's probably because I'm new to this game, but when I got my hydra press a couple of weeks ago, I had an eye popping revelation. By my 5th bullet I think I had steam coming out of my hears. So I'm further down the rabbit hole now then ever before. I love the challenge.

Joe

 

[Brians356]

Brian,

Water fresh out of the tap almost assuredly has bubbles. If you let it set for an extended period of time, it will de-aerate to some degree. Another option is to zap it in an ultrasonic cleaner for a while. If you've ever played with one of those, you may have noticed that the initial bubble formation is very energetic initially, then dies down. Thats the excess air that is entrained in solution being worked out. Starting out with distilled water, poured carefully so as to not entrap any additional air might be another way to minimize the issues.

Monte

Monte,

I don't dispute that water fresh out of a tap must have some air bubbles in it, however tiny or few they may be. But obviously we are not filling cases directly from the tap, so presumably the water has been poured into a pan and allowed to stand for some minutes at least. And, while I didn't mention it, I actually do let the small amount of water stand for a couple of hours in a shallow pan before measuring with it. And as I said, when the case is nearly full, I tap on it a few times for good measure.

But again, how significant can any remaining bubbles be, if variance doesn't show up when measuring the same case, carefully, many times? I am working the problem backwards, as it were. Why search for the cause for variance that does not show itself?

 

[Brians356]

Monte -

My biggest fetish against using water/liquids is the contamination aspect that it causes. If the brass has been thoroughly cleaned internally, then it is fine to use. But if the cases have carbon fouling in them, using water in them oxidizes the fouling and in my opinion contaminates the case.

Ever look into spent brass that has been sitting for a while and notice the white/grey oxidation forming. Using water/liquids in cases to measure volumes is executing oxidation on contact (or is how I see it).

Good conversation !.!.!
Donovan

If cases are air dried overnight (or force dried more quickly in a warm oven) and loaded and fired within a few days or even weeks, I don't feel there is any cause for concern. Perhaps if you let the cases sit around for months or years. Guys have been using water in their cases this way for many decades, and I've never heard any anecdotes about corrosion. "Reasonable care".

 

[Brians356]

i think will try both methods. powder, water and salt

When you try water, put the water in a shallow pan (you don't need much, say 1/4" deep) and let it stand for a couple of hours. Or, bring it to a simmer, then let it cool down. Then transfer it gently to a more convenient vessel. Using a thin pipette is the easiest way to fill cases to the rim, because it allows you to add very tiny droplets, one at a time, at the end. When the water is up to the base of the neck, I put a fingertip over the mouth to hold it steady, and tap the side of the case a few times with a small screwdriver, to release any air bubbles which just might be clinging to the walls. I fill the case with it in a loading block hole, and then when it is filled level (see below) I carefully transfer it to the scale pan.

If you have a desk lamp over the bench, you can position it so that when the meniscus is mirror flat, you will see a perfect undistorted reflection of the light bulb. (Of course, the cases should all have been trimmed to the same OAL and chamfered. I also spin the mouths against a wad of 000 steel wool, to burnish them.)

 

[Brians356]

Brian -

Quick tid-bit from me.... take it or leave it:
Inject the water with a syringe (or a bulb) will eliminate air bubbles and to any need to tap a case. Plus the finer needle you use with a syringe can aid greatly to molecular level.

Good Luck....
Donovan

I use a small glue bulb pipette. Not sure what "aid greatly to molecular level" means, or how it pertains to filling a case with water, but noted anyway, thanks.

 

[gilmillan1]

gilmillan1 said:

I have a hydro bullet seater coming on the mail. Maybe that will do the trick.

It's probably because I'm new to this game, but when I got my hydra press a couple of weeks ago, I had an eye popping revelation. By my 5th bullet I think I had steam coming out of my hears. So I'm further down the rabbit hole now then ever before. I love the challenge.

Joe

Joe,

why did you had steam coming out of your hears? what was your revelation? what did you learn after using the hydro press?

 

[gilmillan1]

Dmoran,

that is exactly the issue i a trying to eliminate.

 

[savagedasher]

I use a small glue bulb pipette. Not sure what "aid greatly to molecular level" means, or how it pertains to filling a case with water, but noted anyway, thanks.

Brian -

Sorry... meant it to say "meniscus level" (edited the post to it).

On another note from me, in a small case like my 41gr capacity 6Dasher's, a volume variance of 4-tenths between cases will change my "Load Density" about 1% (from say like 95% to 96% load density). Which in return can effect the velocity ES upwards of 15-fps and around 1000-psi. While not a huge change, it could be enough to take one off the center of a node. This is where I have tested and seen volume variances effect POI vertically on the targets and increased ES on the chronographs.
Donovan

4- tenths is common I have found a full GR difference The figures you give is dead on.
Larry

 

[243winxb]

Weigh the case after prep.

 

[savagedasher]

The tool I used I do it after the second reloading. With a dasher it takes two firings to have the case fully formed. But either way works by it self but not mixing. I do mine off the datum line on the shoulder.
When I tried using the full case I got too much error. Larry

 

[memilanuk]

Donovan (and Larry),

Therein lies the problem with volume sorting for me. I typically need at *least* 300pcs of brass for a given barrel to make it through a major tournament, and that may still involve a little bit of squeaking by and conserving sighters (in stages with unlimited sighters, taking fewer than I'd really rather). 350-400 is a better number, usually.

Firing each piece of brass 2-3 times *before* sorting isn't really viable - thats anywhere from 600-1200rds down the tube, and brass life (primer pockets) isn't infinite either.

I know it (volume sorting) *should* be better - it makes sense - but I just don't see any way for it to be considered *practical* for some disciplines - long range F-Class in my scenario.

Monte

 

[Down South]

I don't sort my brass at all (weight or volume) and my vertical at 600 and 1000 is very tight with high X counts......Maybe i got lucky and have a very good/consistent lot of brass.

 

[Joe R]

memilanuk
« on: Today at 09:42 AM »

Insert Quote


Donovan (and Larry),

Therein lies the problem with volume sorting for me. I typically need at *least* 300pcs of brass for a given barrel to make it through a major tournament, and that may still involve a little bit of squeaking by and conserving sighters (in stages with unlimited sighters, taking fewer than I'd really rather). 350-400 is a better number, usually.

Firing each piece of brass 2-3 times *before* sorting isn't really viable - thats anywhere from 600-1200rds down the tube, and brass life (primer pockets) isn't infinite either.

I know it (volume sorting) *should* be better - it makes sense - but I just don't see any way for it to be considered *practical* for some disciplines - long range F-Class in my scenario.

Monte

Monte,
I agree with you in many respects. I use 500 cases in rotation, however, I don't replace them after I change barrel, so my brass is fire-formed. Right now I have a neck tension problem to resolve, but I'm thinking of starting to sort in the near future.

Joe

 

[savagedasher]

My reference was to a Dasher where I have to fire forum. A standard chamber should be fine after the first firing. My ES are in the single number. Before I started doing internal volume they would as much as 30 FPS.. With a hundred cases I have found a few with a full gr of difference.
Bigger case capacity of Lapua Brass I have found more then 2 full grains.
When I built race motors I CC the heads. to as near perfect as I could. Reloading shouldn't be any different. Larry