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Water weighing

I would like to hear your technique for finding case volume with water.

Also in a few grains of water difference between cases, how much of an affect does that translate into for accuracy?
 
Fire round, eject case, weigh case, fill with Water(I use my Well water although distilled is recommended I believe), calculate difference, empty water, deprime case, measure case.

Sorry for the mundane explanation and perhaps I misinterpreted the question.

I only perform this procedure for QuickLoad data compilation. I am sure that internal volume affects consistency, i.e. accuracy, however I have much larger fish to kill in my quest for the proverbial "One Hole Group"! IMHO ;D
 
2 ways, water volume is a function of the inside volume of the fired case. unfired is meaningless as it has no relationship to you chamber.

1- i take a fired case that has been trimed prior to firing. leave the primer in and fill with water to level in themouth and weigh, having weighed the case prior to filling with water - now deduct the dry weight and you have the water volume by weight.

2- presort 100 cases by dry weight w/o primer after firing, sizing, trim, then take the "core group of cases by weight" eliminating the heavy and light. do the water fill weight comparison to get the water volume weight,

the difference is that in 2 the case is sized when getting the water volume and in 1 it is not. i prefer 1 as it gives the volume in a chamber fitting case vs one sized.

Bob
 
Good question and I am all ears here.

I like dmeran’s idea of using water spiked with isopropyl alcohol to reduce the meniscus as this will give you better accuracy in measuring the internal volume.

I also like bheadboy's idea of using this to cull the outliers from 100 cases, this will overcome the problem of having keep track of which has what volume.

I can see the possibility of using powder to get volume comparison but my concern there is that with any powder, unless you get them always is their “optimal compaction volume”, there might be significant variability?

The one other question I don’t have answer to yet is how reproducible is this method i.e. if you take a case and determine its volume using this method, how much variability is there vs. variability between cases?
 
The cases will vary, alcohol is lighter than water and brass so alters the results - it also evaporats faster and consistant blend of water alcohol is not possible.

The powder system is fine but just you try to get the grains of any powder ball included to settle down the same from case to case, take the same case and same powder weigh dump into pan, repore and weight check full case again, not the same.

bob
 
What do you use for "tools" to dispense the water into the case?

The alcohol helps with getting the water level at the top of the neck?

Also what would be wrong with testing a full length sized case? Since the outside dimensions of the case would be the same you would know by water weight if there is a discrepancy of the internal volume correct? Or am I way off
 
I sort cases by weight. A 1% spread in case weight's worked well for me in long range matches. Never been a believer that how much water a case holds means much. Especially when the more out of round a given case is, the less water it'll hold. No such thing as a perfectly round case anyway, at least as long as they continue to have wall thickness spreads

There are folks who claim their chronograph shows a difference in muzzle velocity between cases of the same weight holding different amounts of water depending on whether they're new, once, twice or more fired and neck only sized. But I've always full length sized my cases and did well enough in competition that 'twasn't worth the effort to get enthused about the exact amount of water in each case is the only way to go.
 
Bheadboy – Not a problem, I am a believer that the case volume will vary, just wondering how consistent the method is in terms of detecting the difference.

Basically, here is how I look at it, say for example the case volume for 100 cases as an ES of say 0.005 gram (which BTW equals to 0.0077gr or 0.005 ml of water – sorry for the metric system but all lab workers in the US only use metric), if the variance in the measuring system (i.e. measuring the same case multiple times) varies by the same 0.005 grams, then you will never get a reliable read on the case variance. These are of course made up numbers but they are just used to make the point. So what I am looking for here is what are the expected variance of say 308 win cases and how accurately/reproducibly does this method work?

Boisblanchoy - I can help with the question of tools to dispense the water. In the laboratory, we use pipettes, these can accurately dispense volumes from 5 ml to 50 ul volumes of water. Just be aware that they are not cheap but neither are many reloading tools.
 
to put the water in the case i go to the drug store and buy a baby ear wash tube, sortof like a squeeze and suck in water the squeez and let water out of tip,

Then i use a q tip to remove the crown of water at the mouth of the case to level it with the mouth. very consistant process easily repeatable.

Bob
 
Here is what I would use:

http://www.amazon.com/Variable-Volume-Pipette-P200-20-200ul/dp/B002VUDF3G/ref=sr_1_16?s=industrial&ie=UTF8&qid=1344209704&sr=1-16&keywords=Adjustable+Volume+Pipette

With the proper tip (yellow), you can accurately remove or add volumes between 20 to 200 ul.
When you say very consistent, can you give us an example of how repeatable the data is?
 
Thanks for the replies guys.

For those of you that water test how much did it help your accuracy? I realize that eliminating variables helps with accuracy, but how much? Is it worth the trouble?

Also, does it matter if your testing a fired case or a never fired/sized case?
 
Boisblancboy said:
Also, does it matter if your testing a fired case or a never fired/sized case?
Yes, especially if the chamber's on the big end of specs and your new cases' dimensions are on the small side. Fired cases end up with less clearance to the chamber walls than they had when first loaded. So there's more room on their insides 'cause their outside dimensions are larger.
 
Bart B. said:
Boisblancboy said:
Also, does it matter if your testing a fired case or a never fired/sized case?
Yes, especially if the chamber's on the big end of specs and your new cases' dimensions are on the small side. Fired cases end up with less clearance to the chamber walls than they had when first loaded. So there's more room on their insides 'cause their outside dimensions are larger.

Even if you Full Length Size?
 
Yes, here's my observations when "watering" .308 Win. and .30-.338 cases:

New cases, virgin brass = least amount of water.

Fired cases, SAAMI minimum spec chamber = most amount of water.

Full length sized cases from that chamber = medium amount of water.

I quit the volume of water thing when tests showed insignificant difference in accuracy between them and cases sorted by weight.
 
I really should keep my hands in my pockets and not address this question...but I've never been one to keep my hands silent, so here goes.
I believe that weighing case capacity with water, water alcohol, or anything else for that matter...is an absolute waste of time. That time used doing such could be well used and produce much more consistant results if spent elsewhere. Fully prep your new brass and weigh them as they are will tell you just as much as filling them with a liquid for volumetric equivalency.
Time spent behind the rifle....shooting....with good bullets, accurate powder charges and good case prep, will get you higher scores and or smaller groups than any other minutia that you can waste your time on!
Just my $0.02 worth :)
Mark
 
Jlow,

What type of water should be used - good old mineralized water ?
Also at what temperature should this process be done?
 
paul223 said:
Jlow,

What type of water should be used - good old mineralized water ?
Also at what temperature should this process be done?

I have not done this before but I will tell you what I would do if I was running the expriment.

First, I would just use tap water since that is what you normally clean your brass with if you were using SS media so it is good enough. Some people use distill water as that has minimal minerals in it and so its volume can be directly correlated to weight i.e. 1 mL of water = 1 gram. I personally think this is unimportant as you will have to include an additive (see below) and so this will blow the pure water idea anyway. The other reason is for the purpose we are dealing with, what is important is not so much the real volume of the case but their relative volume.

What I mean here is if you do what bheadboy suggested, i.e. just check 100 case and cull the outliers, is it really important? What I would do is to take 100 cases, number them, put each one on an electronic scale, zero the scale with the case on it, fill it with water until the surface is flat (this is the tricky part), record it with their number and go to the next one. Once you are done, you take those numbers, sort it in Excel and hopefully you will see a few outliers on both ends i.e. smallest and largest volume. Once you get that number, you will know what to do next. For example, if most are the same volume but there are a few small and large, just discard those or use them for foulers.

The key for this to work is to add in something to the water that decreases its surface tension so that you don’t get that meniscus which in this case would be like a dome at the case mouth. The problem with this is it is kind of like a balloon which can be inflated to different degree which will give you a lot of noise in your data. You can use something like isopropyl alcohol as suggested by dmoran and that should give you a flat surface across the top of the case. The key here is to know how much to add and how stable this mixture is. What I mean is you have to add enough so that you get that flat water surface at the neck opening and you will need to wear something like a magnifier to make sure it is as flat and as reproducibly as possible. Avoid adding more alcohol as necessary as the stuff tends to evaporate (see below). It is also important to be reproducible when you get that flat surface across the neck, any amount over the flat line or under the flat line will be “noise” in your data which affects reproducibility.

The other variable here is evaporation. Alcohol in general will tend to evaporate faster than water and so the stuff in the case or that batch that you made to use in the 100 cases will change over time and since alcohol has a different density than water, the density or weight per volume will change and that will screw the whole experiment up. To avoid this, one thing you can do is to sit the big batch on ice to chill it so that the evaporation is minimized. You can also check how fast the stuff evaporate off the case once you put the water/alcohol mixture into it over time by weighing it over and over again. Avoid chiling the brass especially if you are working in a humid enviroment as moisture will condense from the air on the brass on its ouside and this will really screw things up.

I know this sounds complicated but that is the nature of the beast when it comes to experimental procedures. The more OCD you are the better the data.
 
J low
A+ to your post

The other reason is for the purpose we are dealing with, what is important is not so much the real volume of the case but their relative volume

To find the relative volume i use straight 90 proof isopropyl alcohol .
Easy clean up when you spill some on the scale brass etc.

Makes little tiny drops from a syringe. A trip to the the local beauty supply
shop for bottles with little spouts helps a lot.
John H.
 
Thanks John! Yes, that should work. You can figure out how much problem you might or might not have with evaporation by just looking at your scale over a reasonable time period that you would use to work with the stuff. If there is not significant change, you are GTG.
 
With a given lot of equally prepped brass,i.e. same firings, length trim, chamfered and deburred, primer pockets uniformed, flash holes uniformed and deburred, etc., wouldn't dry weight serve as an indication of internal volume differences basically as well as water capacity? I have no experience doing it, but it seems to me that if as many other variables as possible are eliminated through prep, that the differences in volume of cases of the same manufacture, lot, and weight should be nil. I could see using water weight to compare different manufactures of brass to find one with either the highest or lowest capacity on average, which ever one you wanted, when working a load.
 

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