Warrantless Firearms House Visit Demands in Delaware

[hogpatrol]

What would you do? IMHO, this is unconstitutional..


https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/k...force-asking-to-see-delaware-homeowners-guns/

 

[Mark W]

What would you do? IMHO, this is unconstitutional..

Definitely unconstitutional! I would tell them to come see me when they get a warrant.

 

[rijndael]

If you have a warrant, I'll obviously comply. Otherwise, I'd invoke the 5th and close the door.

 

[rijndael]

I'm curious about the unconstitutional complaints. They are just asking, not forcing. Is asking not constitutional? Or, is the unconstitutional argument about the multiple purchase report being required?

A lot of people talk themselves into problems when talking to the police. This situation is no different.

 

[6ShotsOr5?]

If you are a member, it might be good to ask them to stand by while you call your US Law Shield attorney.

 

[rijndael]

"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

All they did was ask him a question; he can decline to answer. They don't get to find the answer on their own (ie. go in and find the guns). When you don't answer, that's the end, everyone goes on about their day.

How is asking a question unconstitutional?

If you want to argue that the FFL filing multiple sale paperwork is unconstitutional, and I get that, but I'm not getting the part about cops asking questions.

 

[Charlie-NY]

Illegal use and/or purchase of firearms hurts all of us. Straw purchases are a risk to a peaceful society. These guys are out doing their job. They didn't just pick this guy out of thin air to harass him. They explained what they were doing and why. It makes sense to me and I wouldn't have an issue with it.

Let's help LEOs get the bad actors out of the illegal firearms business; not make their jobs more difficult.

That's just my take on this and I realize that others will feel differently.

 

[22BRGUY]

I think I would ask when this new law came into being that multiple gun purchases
and the item/s info was sent to the ATF? It was my understanding that once a background check was passed by the buyer, all other info was to be kept by the FFL.
I would also be the one asking PERSONAL questions about who they are, ID numbers,
their office and supervisors names and....and....and??? Just to make sure they were
REAL of course and NOT just casing me and my place for something nefarious of
course. Can't be too careful nowadays you know.
I'd also suggest they read the Second Amendment of the Constitution. It's SHORT and CLEAR!

 

[hogpatrol]

From this chair, it may have been to cover their butts if they were ordered and didn't agree with what they were doing. If they REALLY wanted to crack down on straw purchases, they'd be wandering the hood in Wilmington, Dover or Seaford, not a suburban subdivision with half million dollar houses.

 

[rijndael]

That is your perspective, that is not what happened. They entered his property to conduct an investigation that was not supported by a warrant. Do you think the people who crafted the constitution would side with your reasoning or do you think they might have wrote the 4th amendment to protect people from over-reach by authorities such as this?

You can be naive in your support of what they did if you want. And you can be contrary on this incident. I'm not going to debate it. And BTW, I do support LEO's in general - 31yrs retired LEO.

I do not have an opinion that it is or isn't unconstitutional. I'm asking. I thought I made that very clear.

If your answer is essentially: "They can't set foot on your property to ask a question without a warrant" then that's all you had to say.

 

[LarryDScott]

I see all sides of this picture: Retired 30Yr LE, FFL Holder, and citizen.
First I discourage a customer from ordering multiple handguns. I am
not a stocking dealer. If I receive more than one hand gun, I tell the customer
that I have to fill out the multiple hand gun form for ATF, and there maybe
a chance they will receive a visit from them. THEY KNOW THIS IN ADVANCE.
As a citizen w/o any prior knowledge of a visit, and 3 LE showed up w/vests on,
I would feel coerced in complying to a request I wasn't familiar with.
The ATF visit is not out of the norm, but three officers, that may or may not be normal procedure.
As a LE officer, if you arrive at a destination and find you are under powered, it may be to late to save even yourself.
At the present phase of Government interference in people lives, most will recent authority
if the situation isn't handled properly.
Most people will willingly comply, if FIRST they understand the circumstances of WHY.
Your mileage may vary. LDS

 

[22BRGUY]

Illegal use and/or purchase of firearms hurts all of us. Straw purchases are a risk to a peaceful society. These guys are out doing their job. They didn't just pick this guy out of thin air to harass him. They explained what they were doing and why. It makes sense to me and I wouldn't have an issue with it.

Let's help LEOs get the bad actors out of the illegal firearms business; not make their jobs more difficult.

That's just my take on this and I realize that others will feel differently.

RESPECTFULLY, The REAL PROBLEM this country faces is that the government is
TOOOO BIG!! How many 3 letter agencies are there anyway?? and we have the IRS
buying $750,000.00 worth of ammunition while reloading supplies for the citizen
are in short supply if found at all and at extreme high prices. How long has the CIA
and FBI been around?? and what armaments do THEY have?? and they are NOSING around on law abiding citizens while the REAL BIG CRIMINALS against our Constitution in GOVERNMENT are off scott free. Tell them to go check out HUNTER and AOC. JMHO

 

[rijndael]

It was in fact an investigation.

I agree, it was.

So, the crux of the problem is the ATF opened an investigation based on the filing of a multiple sale document?

 

[Aeon]

No one has ever been found not guilty because they talked to the police. Never ever ever talk to anyone with out your lawyer. Never invite them into your home. Watch this video and practice this. If you don't talk to them you cant accidentally incriminate your self or lie about something that is not a crime because you are freaked out about agents in your home. If they come back with a search warrant don't talk call a lawyer even if you have nothing to hide!!!!

 

[22BRGUY]

No one has ever been found not guilty because they talked to the police. Never ever ever talk to anyone with out your lawyer. Never invite them into your home. Watch this video and practice this. If you don't talk to them you cant accidentally incriminate your self or lie about something that is not a crime because you are freaked out about agents in your home. If they come back with a search warrant don't talk call a lawyer even if you have nothing to hide!!!!

AMEN BROTHER!! I found out the hard way when I "thought" I was being helpful
once with an attorney and they TWISTED everything I said to mean something
entirely different. Thankfully, the judge realized it. NO FRIENDLY CHIT CHAT!! These
guys are PAID to make you a criminal! That's their JOB!

 

[TTE]

I see all sides of this picture: Retired 30Yr LE, FFL Holder, and citizen.
First I discourage a customer from ordering multiple handguns. I am
not a stocking dealer. If I receive more than one hand gun, I tell the customer
that I have to fill out the multiple hand gun form for ATF, and there maybe
a chance they will receive a visit from them. THEY KNOW THIS IN ADVANCE.
As a citizen w/o any prior knowledge of a visit, and 3 LE showed up w/vests on,
I would feel coerced in complying to a request I wasn't familiar with.
The ATF visit is not out of the norm, but three officers, that may or may not be normal procedure.
As a LE officer, if you arrive at a destination and find you are under powered, it may be to late to save even yourself.
At the present phase of Government interference in people lives, most will recent authority
if the situation isn't handled properly.
Most people will willingly comply, if FIRST they understand the circumstances of WHY.
Your mileage may vary. LDS

There are people I know that have purchased multiple firearms (handguns included) that have never had this happen to them (we shoot together, so he would have mentioned it).

What happened in the video is IMO selective harassment (by law enforcement) against a person who has committed no crime.

 

[Rat Rifle]

Why not start with a letter? Our a phone call? Why are they dressed like bums.

 

[drop_point]

This is a fishing expedition with no evidence of a crime having taken place.

They have no business investigating people without cause.

Multiple handgun purchases does not imply a crime. The correct answer is, "get off my property before I have you charged with trespass and harassment."

 

[22BRGUY]

Have we forgotten so quickly??? Remember a young man who was trying to do the
good and right thing named Kyle Rittenhouse and what they put him through in
court?

 

[BORGY76]

Illegal use and/or purchase of firearms hurts all of us. Straw purchases are a risk to a peaceful society. These guys are out doing their job. They didn't just pick this guy out of thin air to harass him. They explained what they were doing and why. It makes sense to me and I wouldn't have an issue with it.

Let's help LEOs get the bad actors out of the illegal firearms business; not make their jobs more difficult.

That's just my take on this and I realize that others will feel differently.

I get what you're saying, but statistically criminals aren't buying new expensive guns. More often they are stolen and black market.

Give government an inch, they will take a 50 mile stretch. I would prefer a self governing society vs an entity providing community protection. Since we don't enforce current laws/or invoke strict consequences there is no deterrent to the scum. A proactive society would be more pleasant.