Wanting to be realistic....

[South Pender]

I lack the expertise of most on this forum, but have found the posts very informative. I'm currently trying to get a Sako 6 PPC to shoot well, and it would be helpful to know what I should be able to expect with careful loading and shooting procedures.

Here are the details: Sako A1 lightweight repeater in 6 PPC (overall weight bare: 6 lbs. 6 oz.). Barrel mic's about .59" at the muzzle. Previous owner had it pillar-bedded, and I was able to track down a Canjar single-set trigger for it that lets off at about 2 oz. in set mode. I have mounted a Leupold 6.5-20x40mm. scope boosted years ago by Premier Reticles to 14.5-35 power. I'm shooting off a Bald Eagle front rest with Protektor front bag and a Protektor rabbit-ear rear bag.

I've started with Bart's 68-gr. bullets and H322 and VV N133. I've experimented with some jump into the lands as well as hard into the lands, and the latter has proven superior. I've had two range sessions with it so far. In those sessions, my best powder/chge. wt./seating-depth combination gave me an average 5-shot group size at 100 yds. of about .60" (average of four groups), with two groups in the high .3's. This all with neck-sized Norma brass and Fed. 205M primers. Conditions weren't ideal in the range sessions so far with light breezes present. My thinking is that I haven't adequately explored the charge-weight variable enough (stopping at 27.5 gr. of both H322 and VV N133). On my next trip to the range, I'll try 28 gr. to 29 gr. of VV N133, in the hopes that coming closer to filling up the case will produce better results.

After reading many posts on this forum, I've been hoping for average group sizes closer to .30, but am wondering whether this is realistic with this particular rifle.

Any insights/opinions would be much appreciated.

 

[josh shrum]

South Pender,

Are you shooting over wind flags?

If you are not, you are not seeing the true potential of your rifle.

Once you do get it shooting you should get to a Benchrest Match and compete! They are addictively fun.

Josh

 

[rayjay]

What Josh said. I don't know how many times I've been cleaning my rifle and loading the truck after a match and the regular Joes start using the range and they are expecting to shoot 1/4" groups with no flags and I've just sat there 3 hours watching conditions over my flags showing 3/4" of wind at it's best with 1.5" blowing pretty often. If you say something to them they look at you like you are stupid.

 

[joshb]

Sounds like you're on the right track. I'm just starting to shoot the 6ppc. A wise man here told me to use the h322 as it's "less fussy". Wind flags are in my future.

 

[South Pender]

Busheler,, josh shrum, and joshb, you're right; I need to get some wind flags and learn how to use them. So far, I've rigged up a 12" piece of plastic tape on a stick and have tried to shoot when the tape is lying down, not blowing. But this has really been hit and miss. I'll try to find a place here in Canada who can supply me with a couple of proper wind flags. Thanks for the suggestion.

 

[RustyMetal]

Is it realistic to "hoping for average group sizes closer to .30" with a sporter profile barrel? No, not really.
A barrel that mic's at 0.59" at the muzzle (less than 5/8") is made to save weight for hunting and walking with it strapped to your back.

That thinner hunting type barrel will start to deflect a little after 3 or 4 shots when it starts to get hot.
It's made to take one or two shots "somewhat" accurately as in a hunting type situation. It's good that you are hand loading for it. But if you want to 'target shoot', then I would suggest a thicker profile barrel.

Btw, it's not "pillar-bedded". It is the action is "pillar mounted" and "bedded". Two separate things that are usually done at the same time to work together to accomplish one function. I'm sure you knew that, and for the sake of brevity just wrote them together. But others reading it may not understand.

 

[South Pender]

Btw, it's not "pillar-bedded". It is the action is "pillar mounted" and "bedded". Two separate things that are usually done at the same time to work together to accomplish one function. I'm sure you knew that, and for the sake of brevity just wrote them together. But others reading it may not understand.

Not sure I fully understand this. The rifle has pillars installed around the action-screw holes, and there is glass at the tops and bottoms of these pillars, along with some going perhaps 1/4" into the barrel channel and a little at the tang. I had thought that the term "pillar bedding" referred to both the installation of the metal pillars and the glass (or Devcon, or whatever) that was used with the pillars.

As for wind flags, this would be a good time for me to ask a couple of questions about what to get:

1. I'm shooting pretty much exclusively at 100 yards. How many wind flags should I get, and where should I place them?

2. Is there one wind flag style that you'd all recommend. I've seen pictures of all sorts of different setups--some with a large vane and a propeller, some with a vane and ball, etc. Is there one style that is best for a beginner learning to read the flags?

 

[rayjay]

If the ground at your range is flat just source 4 music stands and hang some surveyors ribbon from each one and go with that for a month or so.

 

[jimmymac]

Busheler,, josh shrum, and joshb, you're right; I need to get some wind flags and learn how to use them. So far, I've rigged up a 12" piece of plastic tape on a stick and have tried to shoot when the tape is lying down, not blowing. But this has really been hit and miss. I'll try to find a place here in Canada who can supply me with a couple of proper wind flags. Thanks for the suggestion.

I'm a new PPC shooter myself. These guys are right though. Without flags, you are wasting your time. High end flags and poles will cost you a good chunk of change. I'm sure they are awesome though. I made these for $65. As long as I use a 6" level on the poles to make them square, they work just fine.



If you look in the background, you'll see a fiberglass driveway marker with a piece of surveyors tape attached to it. Even that is better than nothing. You could do the same or similar for next to nothing.

 

[jimmymac]

...as was previously said though. With a sporter weight barrel in a hunting gun there are limitations. Either way, flags will help you.

 

[Tommie]

Nice rifle. Little bit jealous. Ok got that off my chest...

Not saying that such a gun will consistently agg .30 but I would certainly expect groups in that vicinity under ideal conditions. That of course assumes the rig is in good working order, optimum load development and solid shooting technique. Have seen better groups than that from lesser guns than yours.

 

[C.E.Smith043]

Please don't take this personally or as an attack on your equipment, but I've had 2 different friends that have had Sakos in 6ppc. Both of theirs were single shots though not repeaters. And honestly both said they were sadly surprised to find out how inaccurate the 6ppc offering was. All three of us have been avid Sako shooters over the years and have always been extremely impressed with their accuracy but for some reason the 6ppc never lived up to what we had hoped for in a Sako rifles.

 

[josh shrum]

Busheler,, josh shrum, and joshb, you're right; I need to get some wind flags and learn how to use them. So far, I've rigged up a 12" piece of plastic tape on a stick and have tried to shoot when the tape is lying down, not blowing. But this has really been hit and miss. I'll try to find a place here in Canada who can supply me with a couple of proper wind flags. Thanks for the suggestion.

Four posts, basically anything you can stick in the ground, with surveyors tape tied to the top of each post will get you going, can be done for under $20. Try not to wait for the tails to be still/droop, you will likely end up eating the mirage. Instead, watch the tails for a repeating wind condition and shoot in that.

As Tony Boyer says "The wind is my friend."

 

[South Pender]

Please don't take this personally or as an attack on your equipment, but I've had 2 different friends that have had Sakos in 6ppc. Both of theirs were single shots though not repeaters. And honestly both said they were sadly surprised to find out how inaccurate the 6ppc offering was. All three of us have been avid Sako shooters over the years and have always been extremely impressed with their accuracy but for some reason the 6ppc never lived up to what we had hoped for in a Sako rifles.

I don't take it personally at all and am interested to hear your experiences with Sako 6 PPCs. I've wondered whether the 6 PPC-USA chamber found on the Sakos--with a much larger neck (I think about .272")--might be a factor. A much looser chamber than seen on competition 6 PPCs. I've turned the necks of the Norma brass to about .0095" so that a loaded round runs to about .262" neck OD--leaving a lot of clearance (.005") around the round. I don't know whether this could be a factor or not.

 

[C.E.Smith043]

I don't take it personally at all and am interested to hear your experiences with Sako 6 PPCs. I've wondered whether the 6 PPC-USA chamber found on the Sakos--with a much larger neck (I think about .272")--might be a factor. A much looser chamber than seen on competition 6 PPCs. I've turned the necks of the Norma brass to about .0095" so that a loaded round runs to about .262" neck OD--leaving a lot of clearance (.005") around the round. I don't know whether this could be a factor or not.

Im not sure either. With the 2 sakos i mentioned, bedding job, trigger adjusted, barrel fee floated and lapua brass and custom bullets were all used and done. This stuff did make a difference but not much. Probably shrank the agg group size by .125". The guns actually shot very consistant
...just not as tight as we had hoped. We never really could put our finger on why. Im sure there was a reason but we never discovered what it was. I guess all of us were hoping that just because it was a "ppc" the groups would be itty bitty, but that just wasnt the case.

Heres 2 things i know FUR SURE
1. Every Sako ive owned that had the words "Bofors Steel" stamped on it, was a flat out lazer beam and exceeded my accuracy expectations.
2. Without wind flags, the true potential of any rifle will never be seen.

 

[South Pender]

Every Sako ive owned that had the words "Bofors Steel" stamped on it, was a flat out lazer beam and exceeded my accuracy expectations.

The last Bofors (a Swedish arms maker) barrels were made for Sako in 1968. A few rifles a year or two later had them before Sako ran out. After that Sako made their own barrels, and Sako aficionados will tell you that no drop-off in quality occurred. There remains a bit of a mystique about Bofors barrels, however, and some guys selling Sako rifles equipped with Bofors barrels try to leverage that Bofors name in the asking price! Pretty much myth according to the guys on the Sako Collectors Club forum.

 

[C.E.Smith043]

The last Bofors (a Swedish arms maker) barrels were made for Sako in 1968. A few rifles a year or two later had them before Sako ran out. After that Sako made their own barrels, and Sako aficionados will tell you that no drop-off in quality occurred. There remains a bit of a mystique about Bofors barrels, however, and some guys selling Sako rifles equipped with Bofors barrels try to leverage that Bofors name in the asking price! Pretty much myth according to the guys on the Sako Collectors Club forum.

Very well could be myth

 

[Uthink Uknow]

You have a few things going against you if you choose to use this rifle in a match. First and foremost would be that skinny minny barrel. In a short range BR match, where the 6ppc reigns, you shoot five shots for record and as many sighters and foulers as you deem necessary. Typically that would mean you shoot nine to twelve shots in a seven minute period. That barrel will get hot and accuracy goes down the drain. One poster said not to shoot when your tails are drooping because that is when mirage boils worst. That's right. Use your time on the sighter target to its most potential. Shoot in a couple different conditions and see where the bullets impact. Shoot the record target with the tails in the most accurate condition. Don't get in the habit of looking for "your" condition. Like what life serves you.

 

[South Pender]

Thanks to all you guys for a ton of good advice. I'm not a competitive shooter, just a guy who likes to shoot small groups. I'm aware that the Sako repeater is not competitive, but was hoping I could get it shooting better than most 6½-lb. rifles. I think I'm now on my way to reaching that goal! Making up a couple of functional wind flags will be my next task.