VLD seating die stems
- Thread starter Hengehold
- Start date
Different nose shape bullets. Traditionally, many seater dies came with a huge opening and shallow recess in the stem to be a good fit on blunt round-nose bullets. Standard low radius nose HPBT match designs as in say older Sierra MatchKings didn't fit these stems - the tip bottomed out before the top edges of the recess contacted the bullet nose.
This situation is bad (like really bad) for cartridge/bullet concentricity / consistency. So stems were deepened to suit 'spitzer' and match bullets, but could be mismatched for RNs.
Then match bullets started having longer (and longer, and longer!) noses this starting with VLDs, but now applying to nearly all modern designs. And ......... some got even longer still with a fragile acetyl or polycarbonate tip stuck onto the front end. So, standard stems again no longer fitted some bullets.
....... and we now have 'VLD stems', more sharply tapered inside and deeper.
This situation is bad (like really bad) for cartridge/bullet concentricity / consistency. So stems were deepened to suit 'spitzer' and match bullets, but could be mismatched for RNs.
Then match bullets started having longer (and longer, and longer!) noses this starting with VLDs, but now applying to nearly all modern designs. And ......... some got even longer still with a fragile acetyl or polycarbonate tip stuck onto the front end. So, standard stems again no longer fitted some bullets.
....... and we now have 'VLD stems', more sharply tapered inside and deeper.
Ned Ludd
Silver $$ Contributor
I think what he's asking is why the two different length stems, both with inside VLD taper/bore, is that correct? One simple reason I've found is that with some [long] bullets, the longer of the two VLD stems will force you to dial out the seating micrometer to the point it is almost ready to come off (i.e. come completely unscrewed). The shorter stem gives you back about 3/16" of seating die mic adjustment range, IIRC. I've always requested the shorter VLD stem version for the typically long/heavy bullets I have been using with the VLD stems and they seem to work out very well. I do not know whether the cavity in the long VLD stem is actually any deeper/longer than it is in the shorter one.
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Hengehold
Silver $$ Contributor
gstaylorg,
That is exactly what I was looking for. other than being a physically longer stem, I am wondering if the cavity for the tip is proportionally longer also. If not, I would see no advantage to a longer stem because of the situation you just described.
Any reason that people don't just drill a deeper cavity on the original seating tips with a drill?
Thanks,
-T
Ledd Slinger
Silver $$ Contributor
Just be careful with the Redding adjustable VLD stems. Problem is they are one universal length for each caliber size. Depending on the cartridge die, the VLD stem may be way too short to make contact with the bullet. I have one of their 338 VLD stems and it's completely useless in my 338-375 Ruger die. Might work on a different seater die, but the stem is way too short for my die.
So I just started bedding my seater stems with JB Weld for the bullet I am using. If I ever want to change bullets in the cartridge, I simply drilll/grind out the JB and re-bed the stem on the new bullet. I drill out the center with a 1/8" drill bit after bedding so bullet tip does not make contact. No more pressure rings marks on the ogive after seating.
If you want details on how to do it PM me.
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It depends on which die, not what bullet. Here’s a Redding chart showing who needs short or long:
http://www.redding-reloading.com/tech-line-a-tips-faqs/198-vld-competition-seater-chart
http://www.redding-reloading.com/tech-line-a-tips-faqs/198-vld-competition-seater-chart
Ledd Slinger
Silver $$ Contributor
I see there's only one size for 338 (standard). Definitely doesn't work for my die. the top threads are very long. Thinking about whacking half an inch or so off the top of the seater die so I can use the adjustable VLD seater.
Ned Ludd
Silver $$ Contributor
This is not completely true. This chart may be a good guide to start, but will definitely not work in all situations. Redding has no way of knowing how long I might wish to seat a particular bullet. They may also not be aware of just how long the ogives of some of the newer competition bullet offerings actually are. They list using the long stem in both .223 Rem and .308 Win and I can assure you with certain bullets the long stems won't work with all bullets and seating depths because I have them.
With the type S Match die seater, I've loaded specific bullets at a COAL that would have forced me to unscrew the mic until it literally came loose had I not been using the shorter VLD stem. The same die/stem combination worked just fine with several other bullet choices. The use of specific bullets that have an extremely long ogive, combined with seating them long for a rifle with a long throat, is where you're most likely to encounter this issue. In theory with much lighter bullet weights (i.e. shorter), the problem could go the other way in that the short stem might actually be too short to achieve a certain seating depth. However, most shorter/lighter bullets are unlikely to require a VLD stem in the first place so it's pretty much a non-issue.
You can use a drill bit to make the bottom of the cavity deeper, but there are a couple important considerations. First, you want to make certain the extension hole you drill is correctly aligned, meaning a proper drill press setup should probably be used. Second, you want to use a drill bit just large enough to accommodate the bullet nose without altering the outside bevel at the mouth of the stem that will actually contact the bullet and push it into the case neck. As long as you take those points into consideration, drilling the hole deeper in an existing die would probably work in many cases.
NorCalMikie
Gold $$ Contributor
You just answered your own question. Drill it to fit the VLD bullets. No tip contact.
Jus’ second guessing that Nosler’s rite pointy .224 cal. 70gr. RDF might not like the
Comp. seater stem what came in the die, so decided to go ahead and order the VLD
inner profile seater stem. But then I learn there’s a Standard 1” long stem length
and a Long 1-3/16” long stem length. The chart says the 22 Nosler Comp. Seater die
comes with the Long stem length with a standard inner profile. Could be their
recommendation is for (heaven forbid) seating the pointy profile bullets nearer to
book SAAMI spec OAL. If so, could be if I wanted to fer real jam the longer 85gr.
RDF bullet, etc., then I’d end up having to order the shorter 1” long Standard Length
stem with VLD inner profile.
Comp. seater stem what came in the die, so decided to go ahead and order the VLD
inner profile seater stem. But then I learn there’s a Standard 1” long stem length
and a Long 1-3/16” long stem length. The chart says the 22 Nosler Comp. Seater die
comes with the Long stem length with a standard inner profile. Could be their
recommendation is for (heaven forbid) seating the pointy profile bullets nearer to
book SAAMI spec OAL. If so, could be if I wanted to fer real jam the longer 85gr.
RDF bullet, etc., then I’d end up having to order the shorter 1” long Standard Length
stem with VLD inner profile.
Ledd Slinger
Silver $$ Contributor
That works if tip contact is being made. Problem is you still have a standard bullet seating stem that only has a very tiny contact point way out front on a VLD bullet. If you put black marker on the bullet before seating, you will see just a tiny little ring where it makes contact. Not very good for holding the bullet in alignment with the case. The VLD stem or bedding the standard stem will give you better contact on the ogive of VLD bullets for holding them in better alignment during seating. That's the theory anyhow...
Ledd Slinger
Silver $$ Contributor
That's exactly what I was trying to warn people about.... Redding VLD stems are a joke. Sorry to hear it doesn't work for you
Ned Ludd
Silver $$ Contributor
How many times above did I specifically state and emphasize that the shorter VLD stem was necessary for certain very LONG bullets? In a .308 Win, 155s are among the shorter bullets you can load. A little common sense is necessary in this game.
Redding calls for a # 55750 LONG VLD bullet seating stem. The standard bullet seating stem is also called out as a LONG bullet seating stem(#55028) Order the #55750 bullet seating stem and you will be good to go. Watch though if you are dealing with COMPRESSED LOADS. You can crack the VLD bullet seating stem because the walls of the stem opening are very thin. The length of the bullet seating stem is determined by the die. Not the length of the bullet.
No, actually he didn't. I'm measuring a 6.5 Creedmoor stem and the diameter of the stem is the same size as the bullet itself, .264". I'm not entirely sure if that is the case with all calipers, but suspect it might be. That's kinda similar to a 1/4-20 machine screw.
Lee reloading website-
This sure makes it sound easy, but I don't know how much metalworking you folks do, and you're probably better than me, but those stems are not drilled with a drill bit, or even the proper angle countersink, AFAIK. They look like the throat is ground and polished. Do you need that level of finish? I think you do if you care about your bullet tips. The bottom line is most of us are just looking to reload without marring the bullet behind the actual tip so aerodynamics of the bullet are not effected.
I do have a fair amount of machinery and tooling, but don't have a cylindrical grinder. I could use my toolpost grinder on my lathe, but I have to weigh the cost of the stem ($25-$30) and start to calculate how much my time is worth to me, and I concluded it was much easier and safer to buy one that Redding manufactured. If you can hold it in a drill vise and perform the task to get your bullets seated in a small amount of time, more power to you.
I recently received an RCBS micrometer die with both stems in the box. The same 6.5 Creedmoor cartridge, and the stem throats are slightly different between RCBS and Redding. So, like everything else the Redding stems might not even fit your bullets perfectly. But if you're using common VLD bullets, in theory they should. All of our mileage varies...and I really haven't done too much testing. I suggest people interested in precision reloading just buy the VLD stem...my $0.02...(worth what you paid for it).
EDIT: I have also heard about die makers who will grind and polish the stem for a specific bullet nose cone, ultimately that would probably be the best if precision is the main concern. What are your expectations?
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