Very odd thing. Did a recon on the Chas. club's 600 yd BR and F class s

[TAJ45]

Chas, SC that is.......Palmetto Gun Club

They don't require the bolts to be removed...........I wish they did. But really nice digs, golf carts to svc tgts and F class out to 800yds. Most guys were doing abt .7 moa +/- with .223 chambering. It looks like it would be fun.

There was an occurrence that I'd not read about. One fellow's groups were very round, but usually low, even after sight correction on the sighting in time.

He was beating his brains out why a good rifle wasn't performing with good ammo. He'd about decided that it was the commercial loads that were letting him down.

He shot and then just gave up. When removing his equipment from the line, he felt that something was loose in the stock. It was being passed around a bit but never got to me. One fellow said "Here's the problem", the bbl was loose in the action.......not screwed in all the way tight. He'd just retrieved it from the club smith. Whether or not he had removed or installed the bbl, I do not know. He was loading up and I had the brainstorm so warned him that the increased headspace may have stretched the web of those cases he'd fired and may want to be aware of that point. He thanked me and said he'd already decided to trash all of the cases.

It seems the bbl was less than a third turn loose, if that. Hmmm, if it were, say 20 tpi, then it would be .050" per rev so that would be in the neighborhood of .017".........if that much. Has anyone heard of this and if so, what were the groups doing? Also, how much excessive head space would it take for the case heads to start separating or how many firings.....Just ballpark surmisings are good or extreme detail is OK by me too.

 

[swehrman]

NRA rules require that Empty Chamber Indicators (ECI's) be inserted into the chamber before the line can be considered safe. What would removing bolts do beyond what inserting an ECI does?

-- Scott

 

[stool]

ibs and nrbsa are NOT nra events...so there is no obi...they typically use a command " to remove bolts" at the end of a string.
for non sanctioned br matches a club can do as they please.....obi's suck in my opinion......more democrate thinking...make the world safe....open the action or remove the bolt has done wonders for over 100 years...now we need obis ?? bs...

just one mans opinion

NRA rules require that Empty Chamber Indicators (ECI's) be inserted into the chamber before the line can be considered safe. What would removing bolts do beyond what inserting an ECI does?

-- Scott

 

[people]

Chance of losing bolt.*
Chance of leaving bolt at home. We all know a br guy or two who have done it.
Getting it dirty or dusty.
Get bolt grease all over everything.

Br guys really preach removing the bolt for some reason.


Many years ago I wanted to go shooting what I thought was long range but it was a bench rest weekend at the club. I looked to the west and saw a storm coming in. Quickly checking the radar it was clear the rain should hit the range and rain for a long time. I quickly got my stuff and went to the range.

Long story short they were not going to shoot in the rain or hold out. In the initial down poor everyone grabbed their stuff and ran for home. Well most their stuff one guy did leave a bolt.

A few days later I got a call asking if I had found a bolt. The guy did get his bolt back.

 

[swehrman]

ibs and nrbsa are NOT nra events...so there is no obi...they typically use a command " to remove bolts" at the end of a string.
for non sanctioned br matches a club can do as they please.....obi's suck in my opinion......more democrate thinking...make the world safe....open the action or remove the bolt has done wonders for over 100 years...now we need obis ?? bs...

just one mans opinion

He also mentioned F-Class, which is an NRA sanctioned event. In any case, how is removing the bolt any different from an ECI? An ECI by the way is not the same as an OBI.

I'll tell you one way that an ECI is different from removing the bolt. Confirming that ECI's are inserted is much easier for match officials when compared to making sure a bolt is removed. It's also much easier to insert an ECI into a semi-auto rather than remove the bolt. Having to remove the bolt from my side charger AR-15 after every string of fire would be a royal pain in the rear end.

-- Scott

 

[stool]

notice i did not mention f class...maybe it was for a reason..
the only part i addressed was BENCHREST..where removing bolts is the normal range safe step...
nothing i said was incorrect....

it is FOLLOWING THEIR RULES....not the nra rules....
plain and simple....

 

[aj300mag]

notice i did not mention f class...maybe it was for a reason..
the only part i addressed was BENCHREST..where removing bolts is the normal range safe step...
nothing i said was incorrect....

it is FOLLOWING THEIR RULES....not the nra rules....
plain and simple....

A few years back the IBS allowed AR-15s for use in bench rest matches. Since it takes a minute to pull the bolt out of an AR the IBS mandated that they use... wait for it... ECIs.

 

[Larryh128]

I guess that I'll answer your actual question instead of debating club rules/no rules. I have seen barrels loosen and as you can imagine, the groups were less than good. Round would be a good sumation because the barrel is basically spinning around like a top. Doesn't seem to hurt anything but the brass is usually trash as to indicated. Low impact would be normal.

 

[stool]

yes but it aint a rule TODAY////LIKE WHEN THE QUESTION WAS ASKED....

so my answer still stands...

notice i did not mention f class...maybe it was for a reason..
the only part i addressed was BENCHREST..where removing bolts is the normal range safe step...
nothing i said was incorrect....

it is FOLLOWING THEIR RULES....not the nra rules....
plain and simple....

A few years back the IBS allowed AR-15s for use in bench rest matches. Since it takes a minute to pull the bolt out of an AR the IBS mandated that they use... wait for it... ECIs.

 

[KevinBaker]

Chas, SC that is.......Palmetto Gun Club

They don't require the bolts to be removed...........I wish they did. But really nice digs, golf carts to svc tgts and F class out to 800yds. Most guys were doing abt .7 moa +/- with .223 chambering. It looks like it would be fun.

There was an occurrence that I'd not read about. One fellow's groups were very round, but usually low, even after sight correction on the sighting in time.

He was beating his brains out why a good rifle wasn't performing with good ammo. He'd about decided that it was the commercial loads that were letting him down.

He shot and then just gave up. When removing his equipment from the line, he felt that something was loose in the stock. It was being passed around a bit but never got to me. One fellow said "Here's the problem", the bbl was loose in the action.......not screwed in all the way tight. He'd just retrieved it from the club smith. Whether or not he had removed or installed the bbl, I do not know. He was loading up and I had the brainstorm so warned him that the increased headspace may have stretched the web of those cases he'd fired and may want to be aware of that point. He thanked me and said he'd already decided to trash all of the cases.

It seems the bbl was less than a third turn loose, if that. Hmmm, if it were, say 20 tpi, then it would be .050" per rev so that would be in the neighborhood of .017".........if that much. Has anyone heard of this and if so, what were the groups doing? Also, how much excessive head space would it take for the case heads to start separating or how many firings.....Just ballpark surmisings are good or extreme detail is OK by me too.

TAJ45,

As a member of the Palmetto gun club and participant in this past Saturday's long range matches that you recon'd, I wanted to comment on a couple of your observations. First, the club's rifle line safety rules do not require that the bolt of a rifle be removed when the range goes cold. However, they do mandate that rifle bolts be in the back (open) position. My intent here isn't to argue whether or not this right or wrong, but to just point out that it isn't required by the club. Also worthy to note, the 600 yard BR and F class matches that were shot on this day weren't sanctioned in any way.

Second, I don't' think you intended it to sound like you did, but the fellow with "the bbl was loose in the action.......not screwed in all the way tight. He'd just retrieved it from the club smith" comment comes across a little judgmental. For the record, the club doesn't have its own smith, and while I didn't hear those comments, I do know who built the fellow's gun in question. It and the owner have been performing quite well now for over a year at least.

As far as i know, these matches are for club members only. Are you a potential new member or did an existing member invite you out? Thank you for your comments about the range though. It isn't perfect, but it's well kept and is continuously getting better. From what I am hearing, the club is migrating toward getting things together to have sanctioned 600 and 800 yard matches in the future.

Kevin

 

[TAJ45]

No heart burn here at all Kevin.

As the first line stated Kevin, They don't require the bolts to be removed. We are in agreement as to the club's requirements, both of us. I realized that, when no one was A: wearing a bolt holster, B: No one was removing the bolt or inserting same on command. My statement was regarding/hoping for an upgrade in the already good safety practices. Yes, a great club, great facility.

Re Loose bbl. If my statement seemed judgemental, not intended in the least. Very sorry if it could be inferred that way as not meant to imply as much. As I also stated, I had no knowledge of who had installed the bbl - owner or smith. I may possibly have been wrong as to understanding it had been recently retrieved from - a club member who smiths rifles......If I did not hear correctly, then mea culpa..............I know the owner was disappointed in that it was not shooting anywhere close to what it had previously shown...........so no implication as to quality of work overall or culpability. As I said, I'd never heard of this anomaly.

I will PM you shortly.

For the rest of the board, let's allow this to die please, unless someone would like to address my most pertinent question which was:

"Also, how much excessive head space would it take for the case heads to start separating or how many firings.....Just ballpark surmisings are good or extreme detail is OK by me too."

 

[jameydan]

notice i did not mention f class...maybe it was for a reason..
the only part i addressed was BENCHREST..where removing bolts is the normal range safe step...
nothing i said was incorrect....

it is FOLLOWING THEIR RULES....not the nra rules....
plain and simple....

Respectfully Stool, you do indicate in your post F-Class both in the thread title and in your first sentence.

Also you state "obi's suck in my opinion......more democrate thinking...make the world safe....open the action or remove the bolt has done wonders for over 100 years...now we need obis ?? bs..." You quote Wehrman in your post where you state the above, although Wehrman uses the acronym ECI. I believe from the format of your reply, with use of quote, you are using ECI and OBI interchangeably, when they are not the same.

OBI's are not the same as an empty chamber indicator (ECI). ECI's are required use in NRA/CMP matches. OBI's (no longer permitted for several years now in NRA/CMP matches) only assure that the bolt is back, similar to the bolt being removed. Either way the rifle can not be fired with the bolt removed or the OBI in place. However, the concern is when a round is accidentally left in the chamber - either with the bolt removed or an OBI in place. The bolt maybe returned to the rifle, or the OBI removed and someone unknowingly handles the rifle with a live round in the chamber. Yes, an unlikely possibility, but it has happened. At a large national NRA match there has been at least one instance of a round left in the chamber. The bolt is sent forward and then the shooter casing the weapon drops the hammer and there is a negligent discharge. No harm, but there sure could have been.

Now ECI's will not allow a round to be left in the chamber. Physically impossible.

As a match director for some large matches, I feel more comfortable with the use of ECI's in a weapon vs people removing a bolt. ECI's are highly visible from the center of the line, and as stated in another post, there are many rifles that can not easily have the bolt removed.

I feel it minimizes the risk of a ND.

So, the use of ECI's is not BS. Just because something has been done one way for "over 100 years" does not mean we should not take reasonable steps to reduce risk.

Respectfully,

Jamey Williams
MRPA- president
Northern Rockies Tournament Director - Missoula, MT

 

[stool]

learn to read...
the title is the thread title not mine..and no where do i mention f class

'ibs and nrbsa are NOT nra events...so there is no obi...they typically use a command " to remove bolts" at the end of a string.
for non sanctioned br matches a club can do as they please.....obi's suck in my opinion......more democrate thinking...make the world safe....open the action or remove the bolt has done wonders for over 100 years...now we need obis ?? bs...'

i run matches too...but i do not set ibs nor nrbsa rules...i was just reporting them...
you have a good new year

just one mans opinion

notice i did not mention f class...maybe it was for a reason..
the only part i addressed was BENCHREST..where removing bolts is the normal range safe step...
nothing i said was incorrect....

it is FOLLOWING THEIR RULES....not the nra rules....
plain and simple....

Respectfully Stool, you do indicate in your post F-Class both in the thread title and in your first sentence.

Also you state "obi's suck in my opinion......more democrate thinking...make the world safe....open the action or remove the bolt has done wonders for over 100 years...now we need obis ?? bs..." You quote Wehrman in your post where you state the above, although Wehrman uses the acronym ECI. I believe from the format of your reply, with use of quote, you are using ECI and OBI interchangeably, when they are not the same.

OBI's are not the same as an empty chamber indicator (ECI). ECI's are required use in NRA/CMP matches. OBI's (no longer permitted for several years now in NRA/CMP matches) only assure that the bolt is back, similar to the bolt being removed. Either way the rifle can not be fired with the bolt removed or the OBI in place. However, the concern is when a round is accidentally left in the chamber - either with the bolt removed or an OBI in place. The bolt maybe returned to the rifle, or the OBI removed and someone unknowingly handles the rifle with a live round in the chamber. Yes, an unlikely possibility, but it has happened. At a large national NRA match there has been at least one instance of a round left in the chamber. The bolt is sent forward and then the shooter casing the weapon drops the hammer and there is a negligent discharge. No harm, but there sure could have been.

Now ECI's will not allow a round to be left in the chamber. Physically impossible.

As a match director for some large matches, I feel more comfortable with the use of ECI's in a weapon vs people removing a bolt. ECI's are highly visible from the center of the line, and as stated in another post, there are many rifles that can not easily have the bolt removed.

I feel it minimizes the risk of a ND.

So, the use of ECI's is not BS. Just because something has been done one way for "over 100 years" does not mean we should not take reasonable steps to reduce risk.

Respectfully,

Jamey Williams
MRPA- president
Northern Rockies Tournament Director - Missoula, MT

 

[LHSmith]

Chance of losing bolt.*
Chance of leaving bolt at home. We all know a br guy or two who have done it.
Getting it dirty or dusty.
Get bolt grease all over everything.

Br guys really preach removing the bolt for some reason.


Many years ago I wanted to go shooting what I thought was long range but it was a bench rest weekend at the club. I looked to the west and saw a storm coming in. Quickly checking the radar it was clear the rain should hit the range and rain for a long time. I quickly got my stuff and went to the range.

Long story short they were not going to shoot in the rain or hold out. In the initial down poor everyone grabbed their stuff and ran for home. Well most their stuff one guy did leave a bolt.

A few days later I got a call asking if I had found a bolt. The guy did get his bolt back.

Removal of the bolt is for SAFETY reasons. Matches can have dozens or hundreds of competitors. Many re-load their rounds, and /or clean their rifles between matches . This activity is usually done in close quarters so the rule about pointing your weapon in a safe direction as if it were always loaded is not practical to comply with. It simply is not the same as the casual shooter showing up at his local range where one could and should observe the afforementioned gun safety rule.
As far as not holding a match due to rain or thunderstorm, the only time a SANCTIONED MATCH is delayed is if lightning is present. The reason is that many travel miles (sometimes cross- country) to participate, the formats involve a point system based on matches attendence and competitors scores, and re-schedule is usually NOT an option.
People- Your posts show you seem to get gratification at the misfortune of others ( for some reason Benchrest style shooters get singled out). That is sad.
FWI....I do not know of a single incident where a competitor at a REGISTERED BR match left his bolt at home......it is just ingrained in a competitors SOP to use a bolt holster which contains the bolt and is packed in the rifles case before and after the match. The other excuses are pretty lame....esp. loosing the bolt. Showing up at the match without ones shooting stool, or ammo box(es) DOES happen sometimes.

 

[LHSmith]

FWIW- Under IBS rules..... the "Bolts out" command means remaining seated, displaying the bolt in ones raised hand until the RO has acknowledges that EVERYONE has complied. If one needs to check seat depth or case sizing, one must notify the RO, who designates a referee to accompany the competitor to a designated safe area.
Prior to EVERY Agg (match), the range commands are read and attendance is mandatory.

 

[jameydan]

learn to read...
the title is the thread title not mine..and no where do i mention f class

Stool,

I certainly owe you an apology. You are correct, you did not write what I attributed to you. I mixed up things as I was reading them.

I believe the majority of my post is still valid describing the use of ECI's. I also realize the benchrest rules are different than the NRA sanctioned events. I just disagree with describing the use of an effective safety device in a disparaging manner.

I certainly am not seeking gratification towards others misfortune - if that was directed at me. I was only illustrating how an safety device reduces the risk of a ND.

Best regards in 2014.