Very little Neck Tension or A Lot of Tension

[amlevin]

While letting barrels cool down at the range the other day a conversation started about Neck Tension.

If anyone has ever read Richard Lee's "2nd Edition" they've probably read where he stated a bullet should have adequate neck tension, and perhaps a crimp as well, to delay it's start down the barrel. This all to allow the powder to have uniform ignition.

The conversation centered on this statement and the pretty wide-spread practice of just using 1-2 "thous" of neck tension with no crimp.

Many people shoot with bullets in the lands so I can see where this may provide the necessary delay for powder ignition but what about those that shoot with a "jump" like most everyone who shoots a factory Remington has to ? What if one was to just size his brass for 3-4 "thous" of neck tension and then seat the bullet firmly. If R. Lee is correct this would yield pretty much the same neck tension as a brass case neck won't gain much more "tension" than .003" anyway due to it's stretching with the bullet being inserted.

If the "game" is all about uniform neck tension wouldn't this do so? If not, why?

 

[Bob Sebold]

God bless Richard Lee. He has done a lot for reloading, but I think he was talking about general shooting or hunting guns. He is also primarily dealing with shooters who are not working at our end of accuracy and stating general statements that do not apply to what we are doing. What Mr. Lee is talking about is applicable to your Garand or .45 ACP and is generally correct. That is sadly and unfortunately not what you can get away with in say Class or benchrest. If so everybody would do it as this is in no way knew technology. The fact is, NOBODY in these accuracy minded disciplines does any crimping. That should tell you something. I am not going to get into a long discussion about why it isn't done here because I am to tired! Just let me say one day when I "screwed up" some loads and had no neck tension on them the night before a match when I needed them, for uniformity's sake I pushed them all down to powder level(by hand) and shot them at 800 yards. Everything I have ever read showed these would not shoot. Now it was calm at Lodi in the AM at only 800 yrds but I could not shoot less than minute of X, I mean not x ring but the letter X! I have not tried it since, but do not run much tension on your cases IMO.

 

[amlevin]

God bless Richard Lee. He has done a lot for reloading, but I think he was talking about general shooting or hunting guns. He is also primarily dealing with shooters who are not working at our end of accuracy and stating general statements that do not apply to what we are doing. What Mr. Lee is talking about is applicable to your Garand or .45 ACP and is generally correct. That is sadly and unfortunately not what you can get away with in say Class or benchrest. If so everybody would do it as this is in no way knew technology. The fact is, NOBODY in these accuracy minded disciplines does any crimping. That should tell you something. I am not going to get into a long discussion about why it isn't done here because I am to tired! Just let me say one day when I "screwed up" some loads and had no neck tension on them the night before a match when I needed them, for uniformity's sake I pushed them all down to powder level(by hand) and shot them at 800 yards. Everything I have ever read showed these would not shoot. Now it was calm at Lodi in the AM at only 800 yrds but I could not shoot less than minute of X, I mean not x ring but the letter X! I have not tried it since, but do not run much tension on your cases IMO.

I realize that Zero neck tension might yield great accuracy. I also understand why crimping's not done due to the lack of cannelure in a match grade bullet and the the fact that forcing one into the bullet with Lee's FCD is a bad thing. Where my thoughts were focused was on extra neck tension merely from seating a bullet in a smaller case mouth would fare. If, as R. Lee stated, the bullet will expand the case and leave the equivalent of .003" of neck tension max, would that not yield a uniform bullet release all other factors being equal (case neck cleanliness, length, state of hardness, etc).?

 

[dkhunt14]

I use more neck tension then most people do. I have seen it improve accuracy at times. I shoot about 15 in so I want the tension in case I have to open the bolt on a cease fire. Some guns or chamberings seem to want a little more tension. Matt

 

[Webster]

Richard Lee was probably the early leader in providing equipment and data to reloaders. Like someone else stated he was hunting oriented, probably not a serious competitor at matches. I cringe when I see statements like a tight crimp delays movement of the bullet and promotes better ignition of powder. These are wild undocumented statements. Does he have x-ray vision to see whats happening inside a cartridge when the powder goes off in a millionth of a second? Crimping and extreme neck tension just shorten the life off the brass. They are shooting 3.5" groups at 1000 yards these days, follow what these guys do and not some unproven off the top of the head statement. Do you think they are getting poor powder ignition if the are shooting 3.5" groups at 1000 yds. without crimping and 0.002" neck tension. The top short range bench rest shooters get 5 shoot groups under 0.200" at 100 yrds. They don't crimp and 0.002" neck tension is typical of what they use. Buy Tony Boyers book and learn from the best short range bench shooter that ever lived on the face of the earth.

 

[spclark]

As Bob said, I too find less is more when it comes to neck tension.

For my spacegun magazine-fed ammo I try for 0.002" to avoid problems with feeding in rapids. For slow-fire or long range prone stuff it's just enough to hold the bullet in the case with 'em seated usually 0.020" off the lands.

 

[dkhunt14]

When shooting short range neck tension isn't as critical. I don't know any benchresters that crimp but some of the better shooters at 1000 are using more tension. They also anneal quite often. These two things can improve vertical at long range. Loading for long range and short range take a lot of different loading techniques. Matt

 

[Turbulent Turtle]

I use .003 of neck tension for my F-TR LR match ammo. I like a little firmer grip on my bullets because I do not load at the range and so my ammo travels from home to SUV to firing line at the bare minimum, and it also sometimes travel from home to SUV to hotel room back to SUV to the firing line and back to the hotel room and ... Drop or tip a box of minimally crimped ammo and let me know how that worked out for you.

I should also say that you should take heed of what's happening on the paper at 1000 yards before deciding you have too much tension.

 

[Webster]

There's a lot more in Tony Boyers book besides neck tension.

 

[dkhunt14]

A lot of what works at 100 yards isn't the same at 1000. In 1000 BR you must beat vertical. Your reloading practices need refined. Ask guys like Jim O'Hara that shot both games. I was told by a good ppc shooter that he changes bushing size to tune as brass hardens. Matt

 

[Webster]

A lot of responses seem to forget this is the Varmint/Hunting forum. They keep referring to BR shooting at 1000 yds. The bottom line is just shoot the rifle and see what happens and go from there. If it's a factory barrel it may never shoot good groups. I still stand behind Tony Boyers book no matter what form of shooting you do.

I spend $35 for gas every Saturday I go hunting. Why not spend $35 on a great book. The book covers well over 25 aspects of good shooting. Don't think the book has no value if you shoot long distance. One or two helpful items are worth $35.

Subjects Covered:
A good bench
seat
body posture
bag supports
stocks
bullets
primers
powder
barrels
scopes
scope mounts
bedding
custom dies
die set up
bumping shoulders
neck tension
wind
use of flags
tuning the loads
how to practice
and many other areas of shooting.

 

[dkhunt14]

A lot of responses seem to forget this is the Varmint/Hunting forum. They keep referring to BR shooting at 1000 yds. The bottom line is just shoot the rifle and see what happens and go from there. If it's a factory barrel it may never shoot good groups. I still stand behind Tony Boyers book no matter what form of shooting you do.

I spend $35 for gas every Saturday I go hunting. Why not spend $35 on a great book. The book covers well over 25 aspects of good shooting. Don't think the book has no value if you shoot long distance. One or two helpful items are worth $35.

Subjects Covered:
A good bench
seat
body posture
bag supports
stocks
bullets
primers
powder
barrels
scopes
scope mounts
bedding
custom dies
die set up
bumping shoulders
neck tension
wind
use of flags
tuning the loads
how to practice
and many other areas of shooting.

A lot of guys on here have BR and F-class guns and that type. The theme of this thread is about neck tension. Yes neck tension is more important farther out you go. I have shot lots of groundhogs in the 800 to 1100 yard range and some out to 1550 and vertical is important. You need to go back and read your post 64 that you posted where you said neck tension gave you better groups. I have seen gun not shoot very good and they used more tension and they shot good. If a procedure works at 1000 yard Benchrest and helps it will also help the guys shooting 400 to 600 yards. I am not knocking his book he is the best that ever was but point blank and longrange is different. Matt

 

[Turbulent Turtle]

A lot of responses seem to forget this is the Varmint/Hunting forum. They keep referring to BR shooting at 1000 yds. The bottom line is just shoot the rifle and see what happens and go from there. If it's a factory barrel it may never shoot good groups. I still stand behind Tony Boyers book no matter what form of shooting you do.

Really? That's a forum I never visit, but I found this thread in the reloading forum of accurateshooter.com. Now, I'm confused.

 

[johara1]

You can stand back of the book all you want but what they do in short range BR. is crude in comparison to long range loading. First they throw the charges,that don't work. Neck tension is paramount at long range and by annealing and the close neck tension 3 lbs. or less in variation will in the ball park, They were laughing at the super shoot about annealing….. Powder is weighed to the .01grain. this is just the start.
I can even change the shape of the group by neck tension, i fine tune my neck tension by neck turning. It's that important, heavy or light the target will tell you what you need…………. jim

 

[LCazador]

IMHO, Mr. Lee was addressing reloading practices generally related to hunting, and field issues with heavy calibers. While neck tension is certainly an important issue in my competition loading where I load each cartridge singularly, it's also just as important in my hunting repeater firearms. A neck tension that works for my long or short range competition firearms is not going to work for a repeater. Just the action of working the cartridge down the magazine and up the ramp will change the COL, and then there is the issue of recoil. There are high recoil forces that will change the COL in a repeater, if too light a tension is used. I think both schools of thought work in their respective applications. As far as crimping, only bullets with a cannalure are going to work, as any crimping on a non-cannalured bullet will result in jacket deformation. I would only crimp where it is absolutely needed. One recent and successful ammo example of ammo that is crimped and seems to work very well, is Hornady 22 Hornet ammo with their 35g. bullet. Since the Hornet has a reputation for releasing the bullet prematurely before powder burn is complete, Hornady crimps in the 35g pill and voila it shoots great, with some of the lowest velocity extreme spreads found. But don't try to duplicate this because Hornady does not make their 35g bullet with a cannalure for reloading!

 

[Webster]

Sorry about saying I was in the Varmint/Hunting forum. Sometimes I think I am dyslexic.

 

[mikecr]

All the pros & cons of neck tension are known, but tuning remains an abstract.
So nothing will ever work best across the board.

I say do what tuning shows as best for you, even if it's you alone.

 

[Laurie]

I find light tension works best for me and my loads, but consistent tension across all rounds in the box is probably more important than a minor difference between say 'medium' and 'light' tension. My 'proof' of that is that brand new brass that's had a mandrel run into the necks followed by a light clean-up neck turn provides noticeably more tension than the same brass on its second loading, but I don't see much if any difference on the target at long ranges. Others might well find the reverse, and consistently heavy tension works better for them.

The only cartridge I've played with over the years that saw me use a crimp and achieve a big improvement was 7.62X39mm in the little Cz527 Carbine with its 18.5-inch barrel. One combination in particular - 123gn Lapua FMJ with H335 I think - produced horrendous three-figure spreads and pretty poor 100 yard groups despite its being frequently recommended. Since I was using a Lee die set that included the Lee Factory Crimp die, I gave it a try as a last resort and produced an astonishing improvement. Judging by the accompanying reduction in case fouling, it obviously cured what had been a less than complete charge burn in the non-crimped form.

 

[Barlow]

I just ordered Tony Boyers book. I can't wait to read it and see the errors of my ways. Barlow

 

[Webster]

Let us know what you think of the book especially if you are a long distance shooter.