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Varget Powder...

I know MANY MANY people use Varget, and I know several that have rifles that shoot lights out with varget... I have nothing against it here... As for myself, I have yet to own a barrel/rifle that will shoot it. What I'm wondering here is can it just be the luck of the draw with the barrels I have received not liking the varget harmonics?

I've tried load development in several calibers that I have, I've gotten groups that shot ok, half inch 5 shot groups or so, every once and a while smaller... but I have never had a barrel that would over and over just bug hole with varget... I've always found it odd because of how popular the powder is... Just my random thought for this evening as I texted a buddy and told him I have a bunch of cans of varget on my shelf he can buy off me because I cant seem to ever get it to shoot...

As far as I can figure I've just had that luck that they dont like it I guess. My last try has been in a 308 and it wasnt having it at all...
 
I've never seen the magic in it (Varget) either. It seems when testing I've always found a combo other than Varget that gives higher Velocity and as good or better accuracy than Varget so it sits on the shelf. I'd bet there's only a 1 1/2lbs gone out of 1 of the 4 8 lbers I bought several years back. Someday maybe I'll find that combo and actually have the powder here to use...we'll see.
 
Varget is my #1 powder choice.

Some of my rifles love it, some hate it. One of my rifles only likes "Retumbo".

What is real strange especially with my 6mm's or 6.5mm's, some love Varget, and some love RL15! I tried both extensively on these rifles.

Now can someone explain the above?

My 30cal's usually find a happy spot using Varget.
 
I bought an 8lb jug before the widespread panicking that went on for a while. I ended up finding a better load for my 308 with vihtavuori N160 and never used it. Glad I had it around however as when I finished my first large caliber hunting rifle it just so happens that varget works great in a 375 Ruger. Real nice to because 75grns a round is a lot of powder to be burning and I have a feeling with as much fun as it is to shoot the 375 I'll be burning through that jug before to long.
 
Talk to some old benchresters...long before Varget was all the rage, Viht was in the spotlight. Try using N140 and match the grain nodes that are used for Varget. I have found it to be almost identical. Careful, Viht is a little more sensitive to temp. Unfortunately, its also more expensive.
 
I wonder if it doesn't have something to do with altitude, heat or humidity. I see R15 getting used in Dashers at places. H4895 used at other places and Varget getting used at other places. I have seen guys sit at Williamsport for weeks on end with 3 or 4 Dashers testing. They tried H4895 and R15 and every time they came back to Varget. Now these were mostly Heavy 65 pound plus 1000 yard BR guns that really shoot. The Varget just shot better then the other two. Yet the other two are used by a lot of competitors. Jim Ohara shot R15 and has shot really good with it. In Montana a lot of the 1000 Yard guys use the H4895 and do well. Yet at Williamsport almost everybody keeps coming back to Varget. I wonder if it's some factor that makes this happen. I also see a trend in primers used with powders. I see more of the guys that use RE15 shooting a 450 and guys using Varget shooting BR4's. Matt
 
In any of my 1K barrels, I've never found a load with R-15 that could beat Varget.

I always run 205 M's.
 
I think one reason Varget is so popular, although maybe not THE powder, is because it seems to work in everything from the 223 to 375. Considering the cost of reloading these days having one powder for everything may not be a bad choice.
 
Varget is an excellent powder. However, all powders burn with certain characteristics. That's why all these powders in a certain "burn rate range" like Varget, RL-15, H4895, VV N140 / N540, etc..etc. will shoot differently in different barrels. Certain barrels, for who knows whatever reason, will seem to have an affinity for one powder over another. One of my Dashers shoots Varget pretty well, however, it shoots VV N540 considerably better. One of my Dashers shoots RL-15 better, by a considerable margin, than ANY other powder in that burn rate range. WHY are these things like this>>I don't know>>>They just are! So I keep these powders in supply because of that phenomenon. It will be the same way with a .308.

And as DKHunt stated, it appears certain powders prefer certain primers. Is it that way ALL the time? I doubt that too. However, since there is that appearance, it would be wise to use that as a starting place. I have found that Varget and most of the VV powders like CCI BR primers, and RL-15 does love CCI 450's and H4895 loves Fed 205's. WHY? Who knows..
 
I agree completely with Benjamin on this.

However, VarGet does seem to suit more peoples' barrels than most powders in some cartridges, for example 6BR and 6.5X47 Lapua. In my own rifles, it was the case with the BR, but the same rifle now in 6.5X47L won't shoot for toffee with this powder and needs something slower than VarGet / Re15 in the 4350 / Viht N150 sort of area.

I suspect though that its massive popularity and hence angst over shortages is threefold:

1) the reputation / myth that has grown up over the last 20 years since it was introduced. Many just assume it'll be best for them and don't want to try anything else - ie it's seen as the easy / safe option.

2) flexibility. For the average handloader doing two or three small / midsize cartridges, it's likely to give at least acceptable results in them. Many people simply don't want to have to buy and stock three or four rifle powders if they can manage with one or two.

3) the absence of a really close direct competitor. Where it does work really well, running out and no replacements available might not only see considerable load development needed trying alternatives, but no guarantee that an equally good alternative is found. It makes me grieve to see people here insisting on using VarGet in run of the mill 308 Win combinations which is likely the least powder sensitive cartridge around and for which there are maybe 20 alternatives available.

(On #3, we in Europe now have what appears to be a near 100% satisfactory alternative, Reload Swiss RS52. Howver, it's a high-energy number and whilst it produces spectacular MVs, better even than VarGet, is likely to be more temperature sensitive. This isn't as great an issue here for us, so we can live with this. This might or might not be coming to / arrived in the US as Alliant Re16 with Alliant ATK steadily introducing Nitrochemie manufactured RS powders using its own nomenclature.)

So far as the most popular quartet of Hodgdon ADI manufactured extereme powders go - H4895, VarGet, H4350, and H4831/4831sc - Europe is getting hardly any to nil now with the importer told to 'push' IMR equivalents and St Marks spherical numbers instead. So we're not too badly off for IMR-4064 / 4895 / 4350 / 4831 / 7828ssc as well as new Hodgdon CFE223. We've still to see the IMR Enduron powders, but the problem with the existing numbers is that nothing gives a really good VarGet match or in cartridges like 284 / 7 Shehane ' F-Class 7mm short magnum loads matches 'shortcut' as H4831sc is popularly known.

One result is that a lot of peope here have simply become fed up with the non-supply and nobody knows if / when there might be supplies situation. Viht is always available here and was cheaper than Hodgdon even before people started putting a premium on the quartet's prices, RS has arrived and is same price as Viht, Ramshot (made in Belgium and comes direct avoiding the USA by agreement with Western Powders Inc) is good and a lot cheaper, so have made a decision to do a 100% switch to these European alternatives.

Even through dealers, Hodgdon prices have risen. One major regional retailer lists most Hodgdon extruded powders at £44.50 / lb ($70.48), but wants £48 for VarGet ($76.03) even though its website shows the powder as unavailable. Private sellers are trying it on just as in the worst days in the USA with a member of the Stalking Directory ('Stalking' = Deerhunting) with 6lb for sale wanting £60/tin or $570 US for the lot in the forum's 'classified sales' section. Bear in mind that we have a 20% sales tax called VAT on all new sales, but even with 20% knocked off, Hodgdon has become very expensive here compared to US dollar prices.
 
I've also found Reloader 15 to out perform Varget in a few rifles... interesting.. Maybe it has something to do with different altitudes... Im at 750+- ft dang near sea level.
 
I find Varget to be dirty. Also from lot to lot the FPS can be as much as 60'. One lot was 3020 the other was 3070. I have 3- 8 *container all with different FPS. By mixing the together I get the same FPS out of the 3 mix together. Larry
 
I agree with the above. I've had numerous powders over the years, and all of them shoot well. The difference lies in learning how to tune the rifle.

For example, 308 Win and 175 SMK:

With IMR 4064 - It requires a moderate (lower pressure) load. Less performance, but really good accuracy

With Varget, - Much warmer load (near max). Lots of velocity with really good accuracy.

Now, if I try to ease off with Varget, or push the velocity up with 4064, I get less than desirable accuracy. In my opinion, each powder has its own character that lends itself to an accuracy performance envelope. If you are in the envelope, things are great, stray out, and things get ugly.

In my Dasher, I ran into 10# of RE-15 right when I started with it. That shot extremely well, but I'm going to give Varget a go because the RE-15 really wants to run right at max or slightly beyond and brass is expensive.

I also run Varget in my F/TR 308. It just plain works.
 
No feathers ruffled here.....I'll clarify. when I test in the relative burn rate of Varget, if I get Higher velocities AND same size groups I'll take the advantage of the higher velocity. If Varget gave me the best groups velocity wouldn't matter (within reason).
 
gstaylorg said:
I find it almost impossible to believe that with a systematic and rigorous approach to reloading, including careful isolation of variables during the process, that any powder within a reasonable burn rate range for a given cartridge can't be made to shoot well. What I generally have observed is that when claims are made that a particular powder that has been successfully used by literally thousands of shooters "doesn't work well in my rifle", a somewhat less than rigorous approach was often used during load development.

I'm really not saying that to ruffle anyone's feathers, just pointing out that what we do at the reloading bench and at the range is fairly simple physics. If you do things in a systematic way, the likelihood of finding a solid load for a given rifle/powder/bullet/cartridge goes way up. If you can't find a .308 load that works with Varget and pretty much any bullet in the 150-200 gr range, I suspect you didn't test enough variables during load development.

I understand what your saying... fact is i started this thread and im not a weekend warrior reloader. Im way off the deep end haha! Just havent ever got it to work the way others say they have... im not convinced its an all around powder every barrel loves... not at all... but many have had good luck with it...

I tending to see a conclusion that the shorter the barrel the hotter powder it likes with the 308 and my rifle... varget and reloader 15 threw 1 to 3 inch groups at 200 yards.... imr 8208 which is hotter threw .5 to .75 inch groups at 200 yards... ill be much happier when i find consistant .25 inch 5 shot groups...



Notice actual measurements here in inches.... not moa...
 
If all powders in a similar burning range could be all made to shoot as well as another, those of us who know how to tune a load to a gun would all have one powder for a particular gun and the array of tubes and bullets shot from each one. That is not to say that great improvement cannot be made with each powder to a point - but at the end of the day - one powder will usually reign by a decideable margin. And that does not touch on choosing for characterisics other than pure accuracy, such as velocity or temperature stability.

As for Varget, It depends on the gun, bullet, etc. - just as with any other powder, though in certain calibers and bullet weights, Varget is know to shoot well in a LOT of guns. For my own example, I have half a dozen .223's. one of them will shoot 52 Bergers and Varget better than anything else. The other five .223's will tolerate or shoot Varget well but not excell with it, as compared to other powders. Conversely, in my 6BR, most tubes prefer Varget. Same with Dasher, depending upon bullet used. Save your Varget as, if you trade out guns or barrels, you will someday have a gun that wants nothing else.
 
ha i got a 6br i have even gotten to yet... maybe it will like it! Never know!a i got a 6br i have even gotten to yet... maybe it will like it! Never know!quote author=searcher link=topic=3876724.msg36594352#msg36594352 date=1435005397]
If all powders in a similar burning range could be all made to shoot as well as another, those of us who know how to tune a load to a gun would all have one powder for a particular gun and the array of tubes and bullets shot from each one. That is not to say that great improvement cannot be made with each powder to a point - but at the end of the day - one powder will usually reign by a decideable margin. And that does not touch on choosing for characterisics other than pure accuracy, such as velocity or temperature stability.

As for Varget, It depends on the gun, bullet, etc. - just as with any other powder, though in certain calibers and bullet weights, Varget is know to shoot well in a LOT of guns. For my own example, I have half a dozen .223's. one of them will shoot 52 Bergers and Varget better than anything else. The other five .223's will tolerate or shoot Varget well but not excell with it, as compared to other powders. Conversely, in my 6BR, most tubes prefer Varget. Same with Dasher, depending upon bullet used. Save your Varget as, if you trade out guns or barrels, you will someday have a gun that wants nothing else.
[/quote]

i got a 6br i havent even gotten to messing with yet... never know..
 
If you have any of the 105 Scenar "L" bullets, try them jambed .012" or so with Varget and work up. While that is not the absolute best load in all of my barrels, it is in a few and shoots well in all. Reloader a close (but not close enough) 2nd. The odds of your BR liking Varget is far higher than your .308
 
alf said:
In any of my 1K barrels, I've never found a load with R-15 that could beat Varget.

I always run 205 M's.

This is in regard to my Dashers.......
 

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