varget doesn't reek of ether...what happened?

[lpreddick]

I haven't bought varget in a few years. When those containers were opened the ETHER was very pronounced! I spent hours airing the powder out to reduce the ether, as I worried the additional ether might add to the pressure from the powder, as ether is highly combustible. Went in bass pro shop today and HOLY MOLEY 3 # on the shelf, and yes, they came home with me. I opened them to begin the airing out of ether, but not a whiff, none! What has happened? The load data on the container is the same as my old ether infused varget, but this production smells like rifle propellent, not an anesthetic. Who knows why the change? Has it affected it's performance?

 

[joshb]

Every batch is different. Maybe it oozed out, over the years in Customs. Get some ether and add some to sniff.

 

[jlow]

My guess is ether is used as a solvent in one of the chemical process. Since it is not really a component, just a solvent, the normal SOP would be to evaporate the ether under vacuum and trap the ether in a condenser somewhere else for disposal. If the evaporation process is incomplete, a trace of ether will be present which is what you normally smell. If for some reason perhaps they did it a bit longer i.e. someone forgot to turn off the vacuum, it would be more complete and so the lack of the ether smell. Regardless, the amount of ether in the powder would likely be minuscule and not contribute significantly to the ignition power of the powder. I would not worry unless you see significant changes in your MV.

 

[MagnumManiac]

Ether is used to 'plasticise' the nitrocellulose so it is supple when it is extruded, it has NO influence on the burn of the powder, what you can smell is traces left behind under the coatings added after it is cut and tumbled. It takes around 6 months from start to finish to do 1 batch of powder, obviously, the fresher processed powder will have lees time to 'flash off' any residual ether, therefore it will be stronger in odour.
BTW, airing single base powder is not a very good idea, it will absorb moisture from the atmosphere at a quick rate, every .5% of water/humidity absorbed by weight reduces the energy released (gas) by 1%.
Double base powders, on the other hand, are virtually water proof.

Cheers.

 

[amlevin]

Every batch is different. Maybe it oozed out, over the years in Customs. Get some ether and add some to sniff.

That'd be my guess too. It's takes so long for Varget to reach the market it may well have traveled around the world on ships too, several times around.

Then there's another possibility. The OP has "sniffed" so much of his previous Varget containers that his "nose has gone to sleep" 8)

 

[joshb]

I have to put this on paper, cause it's one of my favorites and applies here: "I love the smell of "ether" (enter your favorite scent) in the morning. Smells like Victory!

 

[jlow]

You can always buy your own spray scent, or you used to be able to when we lived in Minnesota in the 80s. It’s the only way to start our carbureted cars in the winter when temps are in the -40 degree C…

 

[lpreddick]

Thanks everybody...I feel much better,now.

 

[bdale]

Ether is used to 'plasticise' the nitrocellulose so it is supple when it is extruded, it has NO influence on the burn of the powder, what you can smell is traces left behind under the coatings added after it is cut and tumbled. It takes around 6 months from start to finish to do 1 batch of powder, obviously, the fresher processed powder will have lees time to 'flash off' any residual ether, therefore it will be stronger in odour.
BTW, airing single base powder is not a very good idea, it will absorb moisture from the atmosphere at a quick rate, every .5% of water/humidity absorbed by weight reduces the energy released (gas) by 1%.
Double base powders, on the other hand, are virtually water proof.

Cheers.

+1

 

[GrocMax]

The amount of solvent left in the powder is one of the ways burn rate is adjusted.

Drier = faster.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smokeless_powder#Manufacturing

 

[amlevin]

The amount of solvent left in the powder is one of the ways burn rate is adjusted.

Drier = faster.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smokeless_powder#Manufacturing

Sure sounds like an unreliable method to me. In the manufacturing process of commercial ammo, the first rounds loaded in an hours long production cycle would turn out different than the last unless the powder was kept in an airtight environment throughout the process.

 

[jlow]

The amount of solvent left in the powder is one of the ways burn rate is adjusted.

Drier = faster.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smokeless_powder#Manufacturing

Sure sounds like an unreliable method to me. In the manufacturing process of commercial ammo, the first rounds loaded in an hours long production cycle would turn out different than the last unless the powder was kept in an airtight environment throughout the process.

I completely agree with amlevin.

That’s what it says in the article, but the problem here is it does not say which solvent? Water, ether, or both.

logically speaking, I very much doubt ether is one of the solvent that affects burn rate because if you have worked with this stuff, you will know that ether (or more specifically diethyl ether) will evaporate faster than just about any solvent around as it’s boiling point is 34.4 degree C.

Compare that to acetone which is yet another super fast evaporating solvent, acetone has a boiling point of 56 degree C, so ether is even faster.

The point is any solvent that has such a low boiling point will evaporate fast and so if its content is what affects burning rate, you are going to have a very varied burning rate which is never what you want.

So I don't believe that ether content is what affects burn rate.

 

[amlevin]

The amount of solvent left in the powder is one of the ways burn rate is adjusted.

Drier = faster.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smokeless_powder#Manufacturing

Sure sounds like an unreliable method to me. In the manufacturing process of commercial ammo, the first rounds loaded in an hours long production cycle would turn out different than the last unless the powder was kept in an airtight environment throughout the process.

I completely agree with amlevin.

That’s what it says in the article, but the problem here is it does not say which solvent? Water, ether, or both.

logically speaking, I very much doubt ether is one of the solvent that affects burn rate because if you have worked with this stuff, you will know that ether (or more specifically diethyl ether) will evaporate faster than just about any solvent around as it’s boiling point is 34.4 degree C.

Compare that to acetone which is yet another super fast evaporating solvent, acetone has a boiling point of 56 degree C, so ether is even faster.

The point is any solvent that has such a low boiling point will evaporate fast and so if its content is what affects burning rate, you are going to have a very varied burning rate which is never what you want.

So I don't believe that ether content is what affects burn rate.

If I remember my Chemistry classes correctly, Ether and Acetone are often used in a process to remove water from the finished product as both will mix with water. Another "reagent" used in some chemical processes to remove water is Sulphuric Acid but I doubt that works with smokeless powder although again if IIRC, it's used in the manufacture of both Nitrocellulose and Nitroglycerin.

 

[jlow]

The amount of solvent left in the powder is one of the ways burn rate is adjusted.

Drier = faster.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smokeless_powder#Manufacturing

Sure sounds like an unreliable method to me. In the manufacturing process of commercial ammo, the first rounds loaded in an hours long production cycle would turn out different than the last unless the powder was kept in an airtight environment throughout the process.

I completely agree with amlevin.

That’s what it says in the article, but the problem here is it does not say which solvent? Water, ether, or both.

logically speaking, I very much doubt ether is one of the solvent that affects burn rate because if you have worked with this stuff, you will know that ether (or more specifically diethyl ether) will evaporate faster than just about any solvent around as it’s boiling point is 34.4 degree C.

Compare that to acetone which is yet another super fast evaporating solvent, acetone has a boiling point of 56 degree C, so ether is even faster.

The point is any solvent that has such a low boiling point will evaporate fast and so if its content is what affects burning rate, you are going to have a very varied burning rate which is never what you want.

So I don't believe that ether content is what affects burn rate.

If I remember my Chemistry classes correctly, Ether and Acetone are often used in a process to remove water from the finished product as both will mix with water. Another "reagent" used in some chemical processes to remove water is Sulphuric Acid but I doubt that works with smokeless powder although again if IIRC, it's used in the manufacture of both Nitrocellulose and Nitroglycerin.

Yes, we frequently use acetone and ether in a reaction when both an organic or aqueous (water) mix is involved because unlike water and most organic solvents that do not mix with each other, acetone and ether will mix with both water and organic solvents. Plus because of their low boiling point, they are easy to remove at the end of a reaction in a rotovap under reduced pressure.

 

[amlevin]

Plus because of their low boiling point, they are easy to remove at the end of a reaction in a rotovap under reduced pressure.

I guess there are some that want the mfr to leave some of that ether behind, not removing all of it. Wonder how many hours they spend sniffing a new container of powder? 8)

 

[jlow]

Plus because of their low boiling point, they are easy to remove at the end of a reaction in a rotovap under reduced pressure.

I guess there are some that want the mfr to leave some of that ether behind, not removing all of it. Wonder how many hours they spend sniffing a new container of powder? 8)

LOL! ;D

 

[Webster]

The amount of solvent left in the powder is one of the ways burn rate is adjusted.

Drier = faster.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smokeless_powder#Manufacturing

The ether is not put in the powder to adjust burn rate. It is left over from platicizing the powder so it can be extruded into strings which are cut to length. It couldn't be used to control burn rate because it has about the fastest evaporation rate of any solvent. It couldn't be controlled. Alcohol, acetone, ether and possibly other solvents are used to plasticize the nitrocellulose so it can be extruded. The solvents are there for no other purpose. If the powder has an acrid smell and/or red dust it definitely has some deterioration.