USMC is sticking to their guns

[Xerothermic]

Grew up with an Oliver 1950 tractor with a Detroit 2 stroke. Man those things were loud! They were nicknamed the "Screamin Jimmy". They were deafening to drive all day. No cab either. Definitely not like the tractors of today but Oliver was always innovative and built good tractors in their day.

You must be a young man
The Detroit 71, 92, and 149 series 2-Strokes were one of the most prolific engines ever until basically outlawed by the EPA.

Well, there were other factors. But emissions was a big one.

By the way. The Electromotive EMD 645 and 510 are two strokes, as well as those huge 100,000 hp Diesel’s that power modern container ships.

I wish I were young. . . again. Brought up on a farm twenty miles from Bowling Green, OH and the National Tractor Pulls. I don't remember 2 cycle diesels at the pulls, but I was distracted by beer and the girls.

Our tractors were all Case and one McCormick-Deering, gasoline 4 stroke. Back then, whichever close, dealership that had parts was your favorite brand.

You could hear the pulls from twenty miles away at the farm.

 

[DaveTooley]

Cool story Dave! Still livin the dream!

I'm still in the game but not to the extent I was back then. Relationships built then are still in play and cherished.

 

[Steve Donlon]

You must be a young man
The Detroit 71, 92, and 149 series 2-Strokes were one of the most prolific engines ever until basically outlawed by the EPA.

Well, there were other factors. But emissions was a big one.

By the way. The Electromotive EMD 645 and 510 are two strokes, as well as those huge 100,000 hp Diesel’s that power modern container ships.

Don't forget the 53 series V6! They used those in boats and little big trucks like 5-6 yard dumps with single rear axles. I remember a guy with a aluminum 32' diving boat with twin 53's and twin dry stacks and a jake brakes for going down swell in a big sea. I don't remember if he had mufflers, but you could hear him coming a mile away. I even remember a guy stuffing one in a pick-up truck. They could rev.

 

[charlie b]

Father-in-law was in diesel subs back in the 50's and 60's. One boat he was on made a milestone as the only one to do a complete engine rebuild on the engines while underway (CN based, patrol in Carribbean).

I had a scout platoon that was all M113's. 6v53 engine. Gamma Goat had the 3cyl version. The self propelled artillery, M109 is the 8V71T variant. Still in use.

FWIW, most superchargers used for drag racing back in the day were all Detroit Diesel units.

Many have heard 2 stoke diesels and thought they were gas engines.

 

[Steve Donlon]

Father-in-law was in diesel subs back in the 50's and 60's. One boat he was on made a milestone as the only one to do a complete engine rebuild on the engines while underway (CN based, patrol in Carribbean).

I had a scout platoon that was all M113's. 6v53 engine. Gamma Goat had the 3cyl version. The self propelled artillery, M109 is the 8V71T variant. Still in use.

FWIW, most superchargers used for drag racing back in the day were all Detroit Diesel units.

Many have heard 2 stoke diesels and thought they were gas engines.

109's and 110's, beautiful. I did not know the USMC used M113's or the Gamma Goat because they only used them in Viet Nam given by the Army, from what I have read. Thanks. I was stationed at Instructor Company Schools Bn Assault Amphibian School Camp Del Mar, Camp Pendleton as my last duty station and I never saw one. It was a track vehicle repair school with other schools there for Force Recon and Corpsmen. They used the AM Tracks to train them. It's right on the beech by the Oceanside harbor off the main base at Camp Pendleton. Completely separate from Camp Pendleton.

 

[Infrequent Shooter]

There's plenty out there on the 6.8X51 round.

As far as the history of the sniper rifle circus. Here goes.

First a little background.
In 2008 a tier 1 organization was looking for a new sniper rifle. Through friends I was introduced to Accuracy International. I performed a basic modification to the submitted rifles. Got the job of chambering all of AINA barrels that day. At the same time I got a contract for replacement barrels for the currently fielded weapons. Those replacement barrels shot well. Decision time for the selection of a new system. Some wanted AI because I was part of the package. They went with the Remington MSR. Good rifle, poor execution. I got the job of rebarreling those rifles and providing future support for it and another system.

Back to the center ring of the circus. PSR I. Rifles submitted to be shot out of a fixture, no scope, at 1500 M. Alternative calibers welcome. The 300AI and 338AI were submitted. Known today as the 300 PRC.
I don't think the rifles were ever fired because of the test methodology.

PSR II Rifles submitted. Tested at Crane Naval Surface Warfare Center, Crane IN. by the vendor teams.
Remington MSR was chosen. First article submissions would not meet the accuracy standard. I was ready to do replacement barrels, Bartlein was going to supply the barrels, SOCOM was willing to pay the difference between factory and custom barrels. Remington would not go along with it. Contract canceled. PSR II died.

I also did Sako's barrel for PSR II

ASR ( Advanced Sniper Rifle ) I was not involved in ASR. Enter the 300 NM and 338 NM. Barrett was chosen.

That's my involvement in a nut shell. There was a lot of hard work and angst involved.

No good deed or effort goes unpunished! thank you for giving the background.

 

[1lessdog]

You carry around 10 or 12 of the 30 shot mags in 6.8. And you will switch back to 223/5.56

 

[Coyotefurharvester]

Or more (future) wars will be fought from a control room, why worry about close range lethality of small arms?

 

[Steve Donlon]

I just reread why the Marines are sticking with the M27 and I have heard no argument to change that. The Marines do a different job than the Army and need to keep things as simple as possible. Their primary job is not 600 yards away. They like to get up close. Besides we have other people to deal with that like the "MIGHTY MORTER MEN" More now that ever from what I have read. https://thedefensepost.com/2026/03/02/us-marines-scorpion-mortar/ Who needs a new rifle?

 

[M-61]

Or more (future) wars will be fought from a control room, why worry about close range lethality of small arms?

Because in the end it will always be an
11 Bravo on the ground. Not some officer in an air conditioned trailer.
And , hopefully, a 68 Whiskey right there as well.

 

[DarkStar]

I'll throw another perspective on here, likely not the forefront of decision making, but probably a consideration within TECOM.

Containment of projectiles.

Here's a situation that could have arisen with the 6.8 at a particular East coast USMC installation:

There are a good number of small arms ranges (static as well as LFAM (Live Fire and Maneuver)) around a particular impact area that accommodate 5.56 and below and generally do not accommodate 7.62.

These series of ranges have the 5.56 Surface Danger Zones stop in the impact area whereas the 7.62 SDZ would go out over the water (not controlled by the installation).

Of these ranges, there are two that can fire 7.62. One allows 7.62 machine gun ammo (DODICs A131, A143, A151) only by way of Special Range Request that must be reviewed and approved by the installation Range Safety Specialist. It is only allowed within a very, very narrow set of parameters. Basically one firing point, one non-moving target. The other, which is somewhat perpendicular to the series that the above mentioned range is in, only allows for 2 degrees of movement from the primary direction of fire, but no Special Range Request needed. In reality it's basically lock down the T&E and fire at one point.

This 6.8 would exceed the containment constraints of this particular impact area.

There are a number of other ranges on the installation that can accommodate, but now that's more units competing with each other for a more narrowly defined set of ranges. Quite a bit of infrastructure to slow the use of, should the USMC have adopted the 6.8. Even if it was only infantry units and SOI-ITB adopting it.

 

[DaveTooley]

I'll throw another perspective on here, likely not the forefront of decision making, but probably a consideration within TECOM.

Containment of projectiles.

Here's a situation that could have arisen with the 6.8 at a particular East coast USMC installation:

There are a good number of small arms ranges (static as well as LFAM (Live Fire and Maneuver)) around a particular impact area that accommodate 5.56 and below and generally do not accommodate 7.62.

These series of ranges have the 5.56 Surface Danger Zones stop in the impact area whereas the 7.62 SDZ would go out over the water (not controlled by the installation).

Of these ranges, there are two that can fire 7.62. One allows 7.62 machine gun ammo (DODICs A131, A143, A151) only by way of Special Range Request that must be reviewed and approved by the installation Range Safety Specialist. It is only allowed within a very, very narrow set of parameters. Basically one firing point, one non-moving target. The other, which is somewhat perpendicular to the series that the above mentioned range is in, only allows for 2 degrees of movement from the primary direction of fire, but no Special Range Request needed. In reality it's basically lock down the T&E and fire at one point.

This 6.8 would exceed the containment constraints of this particular impact area.

There are a number of other ranges on the installation that can accommodate, but now that's more units competing with each other for a more narrowly defined set of ranges. Quite a bit of infrastructure to slow the use of, should the USMC have adopted the 6.8. Even if it was only infantry units and SOI-ITB adopting it.

And I'll bet you can't shoot a 106 recoilless rifle towards the Intercoastal Waterway these days. I remember a sailboat stopping training one day in 1969.

 

[jackieschmidt]

Because in the end it will always be an
11 Bravo on the ground. Not some officer in an air conditioned trailer.
And , hopefully, a 68 Whiskey right there as well.

The rule in the Army that regardless of what your primary MOS was, your secondary was always 11B.
I do not think that has changed.

 

[M-61]

The rule in the Army that regardless of what your primary MOS was, your secondary was always 11B.
I do not think that has changed.

My experience is based on personal experience from 1963-1967. I was trained as an armorer. Nothing else. I had no secondary MOS as you called it. So my information is dated. Not an excuse, just a fact. I’ll add that if you decided you didn’t like being an armorer there was zero chance of switching. ( not talking about some courts martial offense.) As an armorer you are paid P-1. That should be one’s first indication that it’s not a pleasant job, without being stationed in a combat zone. Except for VietNam I loved the job.
And if your post is correct it certainly doesn’t change my post, in fact it enforces it. In the end it will be an 11Bravo cleaning up and an officer ( really Major and up) sitting in an air conditioned trailer. I’m not counting Warrant officers.
I could never explain this to anyone who was not in VietNam. And if you were, no explanation is necessary.

 

[Infrequent Shooter]

I hope the military has studied a bunch of guys firing the new 6.8 round. Someone above already posted he bets it will be downloaded to a manageable blast, recoil etc. I do believe the FN scars used w the muzzle brake were not that effective in common usage. I have not read anything at all to confirm that, just a gut feeling. Another overarching issue is dual use cartridge//case leads to compromise product that doesn't do anything really great. I know lots of brain power has been used to figure out best combination of weapons to outfit a squad or platoon with.

 

[DarkStar]

And I'll bet you can't shoot a 106 recoilless rifle towards the Intercoastal Waterway these days. I remember a sailboat stopping training one day in 1969.

There's one range on Lejeune that CAN fire 155mm howitzers, direct fire only, in the direction of the ICW. Hasn't been used in years for that type of training. The safety structure needed to execute that one is pretty. . . burdensome.

 

[charlie b]

109's and 110's, beautiful. I did not know the USMC used M113's or the Gamma Goat because they only used them in Viet Nam from what I have read. Thanks. I was stationed at Instructor Company Schools Bn Camp Del Mar, Camp Pendleton as my last duty station and I never saw one. It was a track vehicle repair school with other schools there for Force Recon and Corpsmen. They used the AM Tracks to train them. It's right on the beech by the Oceanside harbor off the main base at Camp Pendleton. Completely separate from Camp Pendleton. I never had it so good.

Don't know if the Marines used the M113's or Goats. I was an Army tanker, M60A1/A3's in Germany to start with. The Bn scout plt had the M113's and the 4.2" mortar plt used the M113 chassis for the mortars.

PS the Marines are the ones who label everyone as a rifleman with a secondary in whatever other position they fill.

 

[Steve Donlon]

Don't know if the Marines used the M113's or Goats. I was an Army tanker, M60A1/A3's in Germany to start with. The Bn scout plt had the M113's and the 4.2" mortar plt used the M113 chassis for the mortars.

PS the Marines are the ones who label everyone as a rifleman with a secondary in whatever other position they fill.

Yes , a rifleman first.