USMC is sticking to their guns

[DaveTooley]

Just to put things in perspective. 75% of USSOCOM's budget goes to aviation.

 

[10XSHOOTER]

A 6mm Creedmoor with a good 100 gr bullet!

 

[DaveTooley]

A 6mm Creedmoor with a good 100 gr bullet!

The diameter isn't larger enough for special purpose projectiles.

 

[butchlambert]

If you’re asking about armor piercing bullets it’s not the tip.
Inside the core is a hardened steel miniature bullet shaped piece. That’s what defeats the armor. We were told it was tungsten but I don’t know if it’s true or not.
It is not visible from the outside. They have black paint on the nose of the bullet to identity its armor piercing. Different colors stand for different purposes.
I took a 50 BMG apart ( an AP one) used the steel piece as a center punch. It lasted for years.
On bombs it’s the same with the painted on colors. One yellow ring is TNT . Two rings is comp B. Three is Tritonal.
In 20mm and up it gets more interesting. Since they are all ‘bore safe’ for 30 yards. But a yellow nose (by far the most common) are HEI. (High explosive incindiary.
My info is somewhat dated.

I have a sack full of the 5.56 versions. It is a tungsten carbide core. I put them in my leg screws of my base for my rest.

 

[DaveTooley]

I have a sack full of the 5.56 versions. It is a tungsten carbide core. I put them in my leg screws of my base for my rest.

I have some old 30-06 AP rounds I do the same thing.

 

[Doug Casner]

We used to use the A.P. cores in the 50s for center punches at lake city. We always called the green tips saws for that new buzzsaw they had. Its old now. Doug

 

[6MMsteve]

I guess if I'm in a battle which I really have no clue I would rather have more ammo in which a 5.56 you can carry a lot more maybe 350 rds for a young guy...plus water but a 51 would be a lot more powerful but I really don't know..never been in a war u have to be there to know

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

The diameter isn't larger enough for special purpose projectiles.

You are about as likely to know as anyone, but is this why I've never heard anyone kick around the idea of standardizing a 6x45? That cartridge seems to make a ton of sense without a new weapon platform. Bigger case heads equal more bolt thrust, the demise of the AR15 when trying to get more "punch" from the same platform. So, the Grendel based stuff had the pressures lowered, neutering pretty much anything on that case head in the ar platform.

Question is, did they ever consider just a 6x45? If so, what would be the problem with it? Thanks Dave!--Mike

 

[DaveTooley]

You are about as likely to know as anyone, but is this why I've never heard anyone kick around the idea of standardizing a 6x45? That cartridge seems to make a ton of sense without a new weapon platform. Bigger case heads equal more bolt thrust, the demise of the AR15 when trying to get more "punch" from the same platform. So, the Grendel based stuff had the pressures lowered, neutering pretty much anything on that case head in the ar platform.

Question is, did they ever consider just a 6x45? If so, what would be the problem with it? Thanks Dave!--Mike

This just my observations.
We know the small frame in it's current configuration has limitations. The 6X45 would be a small, incremental improvement. That would not get them anywhere close to the performance they require. For the length of time it takes from concept to fielding they would be on to something new with the time and money wasted.

Example; the time it took to pick a new sniper rifle. I worked on 2 submissions, years apart for Accuracy International. I almost got to perform the fix when Remington screwed up the second one but it died in a pile. It took 3 tries for them to pick a simple sniper rifle.

Sig has figured out how to manage higher pressures. Lots of things happening that you don't hear about.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

This just my observations.
We know the small frame in it's current configuration has limitations. The 6X45 would be a small, incremental improvement. That would not get them anywhere close to the performance they require. For the length of time it takes from concept to fielding they would be on to something new with the time and money wasted.

Example; the time it took to pick a new sniper rifle. I worked on 2 submissions, years apart for Accuracy International. I almost got to perform the fix when Remington screwed up the second one but it died in a pile. It took 3 tries for them to pick a simple sniper rifle.

Sig has figured out how to manage higher pressures. Lots of things happening that you don't hear about.

Cool! Thanks Dave. I wonder how Sig is working around the bolt thrust issue. Seems inevitable with existing design parameters. Material seems to be the only way. I know there were some "rounded lug" bolt and extensions that helped, though. That looked to have promise but not sure what happened with it. I haven't been keeping up with that stuff much of late.

 

[Steve Donlon]

Guys this was driven by the military not private industry. Better external ballistics and reduced ammo weight was the goal. I watched a handful of ammo companies work for years before Sig was selected.

Why can't the front line warfighters move on from 75 year old technologies?

Cost is nothing compared to a new aircraft.
We have Gen 5 fighters and a new and improved one in development.
$20 billion for development and an estimated $300 million per plane.
That's expensive.

Thanks, at least we are the ones. But how can we have better external ballistics and reduced weight without greater mass without defying physics. Seems like a hard goal. Hope it's worth the effort. I'll stick to having the extra weight of good safe ammo.

 

[Bottom Fodder]

I have a granddaughter in the National guard sent me a picture of a m4 said she shot it last drill, I was not familiar with it what caliber are they

 

[M-61]

It just does not seem right to spend so much money for so little gain. something is not right. Or I'm just paranoid

Nope you’re not paranoid.
Your mistake is in thinking there is any gain at all.

 

[Steve Donlon]

Nope you’re not paranoid.
Your mistake is in thinking there is any gain at all.

When we spend all that money on a new airplane I always thought they got heavier not lighter. So why not new ammo that is more powerful. If they want more power than a 556, there will be a price somewhere. I don't see how it's worth it without the weight in the long run.

 

[M-61]

What we do - develop weapons to fight the last war:

Forgotten weapons

Not so sure about that.
What we do do is have the last wars generals run the new war. That never works. Then the great politicians. Let’s take the man the man that convinced Henry Ford the Edsel was the way to go. He becomes Secretary of Defense. Authorizes the purchase of who knows how much Colgonite dish detergent. Wants it dumped on the Ho Chi Minh trail. He feels that will cause the VC vehicles to slide off the trail. He actually thought it was similar to an interstate. I also want to thank him for Agent Orange, and the other colors. Never a single thought or care what it would do to American troops. I personally ran my flag to the top of the pole the day he died. My goal is to outlive them all. So far I’m doing ok.

 

[Steve Donlon]

Not so sure about that.
What we do do is have the last wars generals run the new war. That never works. Then the great politicians. Let’s take the man the man that convinced Henry Ford the Edsel was the way to go. He becomes Secretary of Defense. Authorizes the purchase of who knows how much Colgonite dish detergent. Wants it dumped on the Ho Chi Minh trail. He feels that will cause the VC vehicles to slide off the trail. He actually thought it was similar to an interstate. I also want to thank him for Agent Orange, and the other colors. Never a single thought or care what it would do to American troops. I personally ran my flag to the top of the pole the day he died. My goal is to outlive them all. So far I’m doing ok.

Good for you. Glad you are still with us. They sure waited a long time to own that one. To late for most!

 

[ELR LVR]

Not a chance.
To clarify: Yes you can shoot at the enemy at 600 yards, but you’re not hitting anyone.
You can shoot at the enemy at 1000 yards too . You’re only giving away your position.
Where I was in Vietnam you were lucky if you could see 6 yards.lol
In my time I had both the M-14 and M-16.
Yes there were occasions in the rice paddy’s were maybe tops a 200 yard shot was available. That was rare but the leeches were not.
But I humped that M-14 and ammo and preferred it to the M-16.
I guess I should add I was there early in the war and the issued M-16 (non chrome lined) were garbage. This was corrected by lining the barrel (had the letter C stamped on the receiver.) That was better. Then they realized that a cleaning kit would be nice to issue also.
I’ll share this antidote and it’s absolutely true. The instructor explaining the M-16 went on to talk about what a lethal cartridge this 5.56 was. He went into great detail how, when fired, this bullet tumbled through the air causing enormous wounds.
I might have been a wise assed kid at the time, but I knew this was pure BS . I had been around reloaders since I was 10. End of story.
In retrospect if given the choice of which of the two I don’t want to be shot with, it doesn’t take much thought.

You have experience
but What I've read
Nobody listened to Stoner until it was too late -until failures happend
Such as Cleaning regimen
They were complaining about failures on the M-16 and went back to Stoner to ask why
First question he asked was
"What's your cleaning regimen"
(Deer in headlight look) Cleaning....Regimen?
Ignored the proper Powder to be used so it would cycle and function correctly etc
---
I notice the Military is very slow and stubborn to change or adopt anything new
even when it's a benefit

 

[ELR LVR]

I have a sack full of the 5.56 versions. It is a tungsten carbide core. I put them in my leg screws of my base for my rest.

I use the .308/30/06 versions for the same purpose
Lasts a lifetime

 

[jackieschmidt]

This guy has a unique way of cutting through the BS.

 

[Thauglor]

Funny thing. In a fire fight I never noticed the recoil no matter what I was shooting.
Today on a bench with my coffee and donut and no one returning fire (No green tracers) I’m fully aware of recoil in everything I shoot.

You might not notice, but the fact is, and it has been proven in tests, that follow up shots are not only quicker but also more accurate in the lower recoiling round