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Use lowest SD or lowest MOA?

Im sure not going to argue that because my customers that hold records in f class are sponsored and on teams and im not at liberty to say but quite a few f class records stand by target results over chronograph results

We all use target results but chronograph sure helps get it there.

Not at liberty to say what, who your record holding customers are? Why not?

I happen to be a multiple record holding F Class shooter. I have sponsors and a team
 
This question of using lowest ES/SD versus group size has come up quite a few times in recent months. The "answer" is not necessarily simple and there are likely a number of factors involved.

For starters, the occurrence of "positive compensation" is very well-documented. Positive compensation is an effect where slightly faster-moving bullets exit the bore ever so slightly earlier in the harmonic cycle than do slightly slower-moving bullets. As a result, the muzzle launch angle is slightly higher for the slower moving bullets (i.e. slightly later in the upswing of the harmonic cycle). In other words, the muzzle is pointing slightly higher when they leave so they have a slightly higher arc and arrive at the target at nearly the same vertical height as the faster-moving bullets, even though they have a tick less velocity. The slightly faster-moving bullets exit the bore ever so slightly earlier when the muzzle has a slightly lower launch angle. I have asked a few shooters that test loads at 1000 yd about the process of positive compensation and they have suggested that the velocity "window" over which this process occurs is probably in the neighborhood of about 20 fps wide.

In my mind, where the disconnect occurs is that many shooters here often state that really low ES/SD (i.e. well under 10 fps) isn't necessary, often with an undercurrent (my interpretation) that it might actually be bad. Further, they often state that their very best groups/loads often have an ES in the mid-teens. However, as I understand the process of positive compensation, as long as the velocities of all the shots in a group fall within that ~20 fps "window", it shouldn't make any difference. The groups should still benefit from the process of positive compensation and exhibit less vertical at long distance than than would be predicted by a ballistic program solely based on the individual shot velocities. In other words, any load with an ES below about 20 fps, as long as it falls within the positive compensation velocity window, should show the benefits of positive compensation in terms of vertical. For example, it shouldn't matter whether the ES was 15 fps or 4 fps, as long as the velocities were within the window. So very low ES shouldn't necessarily be bad, unless it is actually out of the window. Either there is something we [maybe it's just me] don't fully understand about positive compensation, or else the velocity numbers are misleading.

I personally favor the latter interpretation. It is common to measure velocities in 5-shot, or sometimes even 10-shot groups during the process of load development. Such sample sets are nowhere near large enough to gain statistically relevant ES/SD data. In fact, if you obtain enough 5-shot velocity data sets using the exact same load, you will usually begin to see how much variance there can be in the ES/SD values between different 5-shot groups with the exact same load. In reality, most shooters don't generate that amount of velocity data. Who wants to burn out their barrel by the time a single load development is completed? So we typically shoot small 5-shot groups during charge weight and seating depth testing, look at the numbers, and try infer some statistical relevance to the velocity data using samples sets that are far too small to provide statistically reliable information.

Based on my interpretation regarding statistical analysis of velocity data and the small sample sets involved, my feeling is simply that you want the ES/SD to be as low as you can reasonably achieve. Clearly ES values in the 40 fps, 50 fps, or even higher, are generally not acceptable, nor should they be. First, with such a high ES value, the velocities of individual shots will clearly fall outside the optimal velocity window in which positive compensation occurs (~20 fps), meaning you will have excessive vertical dispersion. Second, it is not difficult for most people, with a little experience and attention to detail during the brass preparation and reloading process, to routinely obtain ES values under the apparent 20 fps positive compensation window. The same cannot be said for routinely obtaining ES values well under 10 fps, especially with certain cartridge/powder/primer/bullet combinations; i.e. the smaller the case, the harder it often becomes to keep the ES/SD that low.

So the idea is use good reloading practices to keep your ES/SD reasonable, and you pay very close attention to what the targets tell you in order to determine where the optimal load parameters actually are. Pretty simple, really. Velocity measurements can have their place in terms of quickly finding the approximate region, and possibly expediting the load development process, but ultimately, the target has the final say. Velocity data can also be used as a "quality-control" mechanism, in that of your ES/SD values are unacceptably high, you know you have a little more work to do.
 
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I use a chronograph for load development mostly because I can do that at home with my 50 yard range. The lowest ES/SD is usually between several close loads of similar velocity but slightly higher spreads, thus telling me its the middle of the node. Then I take that load with multiple seating depths to the range and test depths at 300 yards. Once I find what I am looking for then its time to load them and shoot multiple distances.

I have not had this method disappoint me yet. And I do this for several different calibers, bullets, powder etc. ES/SD On the target are effected by environmental conditions. Even with that being said unless conditions are crazy I generally have single digit SDs at the target with 20+ shot strings over multiple matches in a day.

As my daddy always said, “There is more than one way to skin a cat. You just have to catch it first!”

There are many ways to accomplish the same end result. I just happen to like my way and it is greatly proven.
 
For LR (my main interest), I am of the opinion vertical dispersion trumps both velocity data and group size. And the further the distance, the more effect vertical has on group spread. Assessment and charting of it will statistically prevail in my experience, which I seldom see done (typically only see velocity and group size analysis). Vertical dispersion is significantly my primary assessment with all load development and tuning.

Reference image of one of the calculations spread sheets that I use when ladder testing:

View attachment 1112634

All the recorded groups are small. How do you know how much of the group size is shooter or wind related? No-one shoots the same load to the same group size over and over again.
 
I use a chronograph for load development mostly because I can do that at home with my 50 yard range. The lowest ES/SD is usually between several close loads of similar velocity but slightly higher spreads, thus telling me its the middle of the node. Then I take that load with multiple seating depths to the range and test depths at 300 yards. Once I find what I am looking for then its time to load them and shoot multiple distances.

I have not had this method disappoint me yet. And I do this for several different calibers, bullets, powder etc. ES/SD On the target are effected by environmental conditions. Even with that being said unless conditions are crazy I generally have single digit SDs at the target with 20+ shot strings over multiple matches in a day.

As my daddy always said, “There is more than one way to skin a cat. You just have to catch it first!”

There are many ways to accomplish the same end result. I just happen to like my way and it is greatly proven.


Jenn - You're not alone; I and plenty of other F-Class shooters also do load development using the same method. It absolutely works.

Having said that, there is also a difference in shooting disciplines that must be taken into consideration. In F-Class, a load that will hold 0.25 MOA at 100 yd with good ES/SD values is easily capable of winning. Due to the long (20+ shots) strings of fire at slow cadence, the odds are great that if there's any wind at all, it will be the limiting factor in the final score. In windy conditions, demonstrating that there was any advantage of a 0.1 MOA load over a 0.25 MOA load would be difficult, if not impossible, because the precision of the load will likely not be the limiting source of error. In 1000 yd BR, even a few hundredths or thousandths of an inch in terms of group agg can make a difference between winning and losing. But the shot strings for record are shorter and are fired at a much faster cadence without the consideration of the time required for target (pit) service. So there are definitely differences in the potential limiting sources of error between the two disciplines and the reloading approaches used should take those differences into account.
 
Sounds like both methods have put people on the podium, in there minds there methods work....sounds like they both work, we get to choose our own medicine!
 

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