Upping reloading game for PRS advice

[Adam0321/0306]

Hello everyone. So I have been reloading for 20+ years. I have historically loaded for all of my hunting rifles and once I got 1 MOA and SDs around 10-15, I called it good. I have recently started getting more into PRS and find myself going down the rabbit hole. I generally suffer from bad cases of GAS (gear acquisition syndrome). I currently shoot a custom .308 in tactical division with a rifle built for me by the 2112s at the USMC Precision Weapons School. I know whatever I do in the reloading room is not going to improve my standings near as much as practice and experience, but I enjoy reloading nearly as much as I do shooting. This is my current set up. Looking for advice on what to change or add.

No currently annealing.
FL size in a RCBS standard FL die with a RCBS RCII (I have a dillion XL 750 also, but use that for 45 ACP and .223)
Trim on a Lyman Brass Smith power trimmer. I hate this thing and am between the Henderson and the Giraud
Chamfer and De-bur on a Lyman Case Prep Express
Seat Primers with an RCBS bench top primer seater
RCBS Charge Master Lite
Seat bullets with a standard RCBS seating die

I am using FC brass, IMR 4064 powder, soon to be switching to Varget as I cannot find 4064 anymore, CCI No 200 LRPs and Sierra 2156 155 Gn SMK bullets.

Here is what I am thinking, open to any advice. The rifle currently shoots consistent .65-.85 MOA at 2753 with an SD of 11.

Get better Brass. Lapua or Alpha, or.....?
Anneal
Swap dies out for short action customs or just something better
Stop using the standard sizing button and switch to a bushing and mandril
Better case trimmer
Better seating dies

Like I said, open to any and all advice and would love to hear where you all think I have holes and where my money could be best spent.

 

[RabbitSlayer]

I do all the things except turn necks. Brass is the one thing that made a big difference. Nothing else really seemed to make much difference, but doing all the things makes me feel good.

 

[Adam0321/0306]

I do all the things except turn necks. Brass is the one thing that made a big difference. Nothing else really seemed to make much difference, but doing all the things makes me feel good.

Thank you. From what I gather, neck tension, concentricity, and low SDs will most likelt be affected by first getting better brass.

 

[marchboom]

Good brass, definitely get an annealer (I use an UGLY annealing machine), take out the factory expanding button and use a mandrel. I like Forster dies because they will hone out the sizing die to your specs and that will lessen the work hardening of the brass. Also, you don't have to spend $400 on a set of dies.

This is not reloading related but get a good set of wind flags. All the specialized reloading tools and techniques are worthless if you can read the wind and it blows your bullet around. That large group might not be a reloading issue. It might be the wind moving the bullets (to the left on one shot, to the right on the next shot, no wind on the third, etc).

 

[Webster]

Good brass, definitely get an annealer (I use an UGLY annealing machine), take out the factory expanding button and use a mandrel. I like Forster dies because they will hone out the sizing die to your specs and that will lessen the work hardening of the brass. Also, you don't have to spend $400 on a set of dies.

This is not reloading related but get a good set of wind flags. All the specialized reloading tools and techniques are worthless if you can read the wind and it blows your bullet around. That large group might not be a reloading issue. It might be the wind moving the bullets (to the left on one shot, to the right on the next shot, no wind on the third, etc).

I'm a varmint hunter. For some reason I always recorded group vertical and horizontal dimension. Not max width. Only use other guys flags if they are on the range. Over the years I noticed my groups typically are 0.100" wider than vertical at 100 yrds. Has to be the wind.

 

[Adam0321/0306]

Good brass, definitely get an annealer (I use an UGLY annealing machine), take out the factory expanding button and use a mandrel. I like Forster dies because they will hone out the sizing die to your specs and that will lessen the work hardening of the brass. Also, you don't have to spend $400 on a set of dies.

This is not reloading related but get a good set of wind flags. All the specialized reloading tools and techniques are worthless if you can read the wind and it blows your bullet around. That large group might not be a reloading issue. It might be the wind moving the bullets (to the left on one shot, to the right on the next shot, no wind on the third, etc).

Thank you. That is kind of where I was stuck with the dies. I have a 25-06 that I reload for that I use Redding Type S dies and that gun has printed sub .5 MOA groups. It is hard for me to think about dropping $400-700 on dies when that could be better spent for quality brass and an annealer.

As for wind flags, I have them for my range time, but in a PRS match, you cannot place flags out.

 

[Webster]

Thank you. That is kind of where I was stuck with the dies. I have a 25-06 that I reload for that I use Redding Type S dies and that gun has printed sub .5 MOA groups. It is hard for me to think about dropping $400-700 on dies when that could be better spent for quality brass and an annealer.

As for wind flags, I have them for my range time, but in a PRS match, you cannot place flags out.

Think about bench skills not how can I measure everything.

 

[linebaugh]

Where are you placing now, overall? I dont mean tac division as many matches only have a cpl shooters in tac.
Do you really think reloading practices or ES is making or breaking your matches?
I woud tell you to try to get a bit better with reloading but to spend more time burning that first barrel out learning. A change of powder alone may fix most of this issue.

If you dont have one get a schmedium game changer heavy fill, that piece of equipment will change your score faster than many other things.

Its very easy to get into the mental gymnastics starting out thinking you need all sorts of stuff and thinking you need to do all sorts of things. Mostly you just need to shoot a cpl seasons hard and pay attention to the better shooters and what works for you. There are so many ways to "waste" your money. Best to slow play your way into it.

Best of luck and have a blast. You will learn so much so fast I recommend it to anyone. Your hunting game will get way better as well.

 

[Adam0321/0306]

Think about bench skills not how can I measure everything.

Can you elaborate please

 

[JFrank]

Thank you. That is kind of where I was stuck with the dies. I have a 25-06 that I reload for that I use Redding Type S dies and that gun has printed sub .5 MOA groups. It is hard for me to think about dropping $400-700 on dies when that could be better spent for quality brass and an annealer.

As for wind flags, I have them for my range time, but in a PRS match, you cannot place flags out.

As a synopsis you’re shooting a game that pivots around low ES/SD, from my testing those are cumbustion and ignition related, consistent neck tension helps also but more so in group size than numbers.

 

[Adam0321/0306]

Where are you placing now, overall? I dont mean tac division as many matches only have a cpl shooters in tac.
Do you really think reloading practices or ES is making or breaking your matches?
I woud tell you to try to get a bit better with reloading but to spend more time burning that first barrel out learning. A change of powder alone may fix most of this issue.

If you dont have one get a schmedium game changer heavy fill, that piece of equipment will change your score faster than many other things.

Its very easy to get into the mental gymnastics starting out thinking you need all sorts of stuff and thinking you need to do all sorts of things. Mostly you just need to shoot a cpl seasons hard and pay attention to the better shooters and what works for you. There are so many ways to "waste" your money. Best to slow play your way into it.

Best of luck and have a blast. You will learn so much so fast I recommend it to anyone. Your hunting game will get way better as well.

Right now I have only shot two matches and have placed in the bottom 1/3. But, they are just local matches with a fair amount in TAC.

My current weakness is absolutely me. Not the gun, ammo, scope, or reloading. 1000% my wind reading, position building, and time management.

 

[linebaugh]

Right now I have only shot two matches and have placed in the bottom 1/3. But, they are just local matches with a fair amount in TAC.

My current weakness is absolutely me. Not the gun, ammo, scope, or reloading. 1000% my wind reading, position building, and time management.

That all comes with time. Its a frustrating sport to start into but totally worth the effort. The only thing I would seriously buy is a bag and more reloading components. Shoot, shoot, shoot... it gets better and better as you go. I cant speak for all regions or ranges but most everyone i have ever met in the sport will help you and let you use/try gear.
Shoot as many matches as you can and befriend everyone there. It will all start coming together and a much bigger picture will take shape for you. Dont get frustrsted and dont try to buy your way to points with gear. Shoot, shoot, shoot

 

[tdogg]

Without knowing what your process outputs (e.g. how consistent your brass dimensions are as loaded), it's hard to recommend something. After sizing, how much variation do you have at the shoulder? How straight is your ammunition? These outputs are mostly controlled by the sizing process. What variation are you seeing when charging cases? Do you have something to check your chargemaster against?

Ultimately, if we don't know how consistent your reloads are (OAL, charge weights, Shoulder bumps, SD's, neck tension, etc...), then it will be difficult to suggest things to try. What does it group at 500yds or 1000yds? Have you performed a seating depth test?

Having just shot my first PRS match, I'm definitely not concerned about my ammunition. I have way lower hanging fruit, like setting up my rifle such that finding targets in the scope is easier. Figuring out when I'm going prone vs kneeling vs standing. What gear/how to get setup for modified prone shooting off inclined platforms. How to read wind in the scope fast and effectively or how to better spot my hits to make corrections on the fly. My ammo doesn't do much if I can't even get setup to make the shot.

Cheers,
Toby

 

[Adam0321/0306]

That all comes with time. Its a frustrating sport to start into but totally worth the effort. The only thing I would seriously buy is a bag and more reloading components. Shoot, shoot, shoot... it gets better and better as you go. I cant speak for all regions or ranges but most everyone i have ever met in the sport will help you and let you use/try gear.
Shoot as many matches as you can and befriend everyone there. It will all start coming together and a much bigger picture will take shape for you. Dont get frustrsted and dont try to buy your way to points with gear. Shoot, shoot, shoot

Thank you. I have a few game changer bags and a RRS tripod. It certainly is fun and I know shooting is going to improve my standings far faster and better than any trinket or tool. Just looking to make the best ammo I can without going crazy about it.

 

[Adam0321/0306]

Sorry, I meant to type the bottom of the top 1/3

 

[Adam0321/0306]

Without knowing what your process outputs (e.g. how consistent your brass dimensions are as loaded), it's hard to recommend something. After sizing, how much variation do you have at the shoulder? How straight is your ammunition? These outputs are mostly controlled by the sizing process. What variation are you seeing when charging cases? Do you have something to check your chargemaster against?

Ultimately, if we don't know how consistent your reloads are (OAL, charge weights, Shoulder bumps, SD's, neck tension, etc...), then it will be difficult to suggest things to try. What does it group at 500yds or 1000yds? Have you performed a seating depth test?

Having just shot my first PRS match, I'm definitely not concerned about my ammunition. I have way lower hanging fruit, like setting up my rifle such that finding targets in the scope is easier. Figuring out when I'm going prone vs kneeling vs standing. What gear/how to get setup for modified prone shooting off inclined platforms. How to read wind in the scope fast and effectively or how to better spot my hits to make corrections on the fly. My ammo doesn't do much if I can't even get setup to make the shot.

Cheers,
Toby

I guess what I am really chasing is lower SDs. The ammo I am shooting right now has a fairly consistent SD of 11. But, I was just shooting some 300 WM ammo that I am testing and all but one of my charge weights produced single digit SDs. The lowest being a population of 5 shots and an SD of 4.2 FPS.

 

[Daveofiowa]

What does a ballistic calculator tell you the 11FPS difference is at typical target distances?

 

[Adam0321/0306]

Fair point, at 600 yards is is only a couple inches.