Update Reloading Equipment?

[Phil3]

I have been away from rifles and firearms in general for a few years, but am making the effort to get going again. Just wondering if my reloading equipment is out of date and in need of updating. The equipment needs to be able to create rounds of sufficient consistency to routinely achieve 1/4 MOA accuracy at 100 - 1200 yards. I understand that the shooter, rifle, environment, cartridge, shooting setup, must also be up to snuff. I just do not want the ammo to be a weak point.

Forster Co-Ax press.
Forster FL and Micrometer bullet seating dies.
Redding neck thickness gauge.
K&M primer seater.
RCBS Chargemaster 1500
Hornady OAL gauge. Also have the Sinclair variant.
Sinclair manual case trimmer.
Assorted Sinclair tools for primer pocket, flash hole, case neck trim and finishing.
Tools to measure from bullet ogive to case head.
Wilson case gauge.
Frankford Arsenal case tumbler with steel pins.
Sinclair concentricity measurement tool.

I probably forgot something, but this is all my old brain can think of right now.

For accuracy focused rounds, I use Lapua brass, Sierra or Berger bullets. I intend on sending a FL die to Forster to hone it to size of my chamber. I do not like the expander ball. I do not have any annealing equipment. I do have chronograph gear and Quickload. I also have a mechanical front rest with a Shade Tree Engineering top. Rounds I shoot at various distances are 223 Remington (not 5.56), 6mmBR, and either 6.5 x 47 or 6 GT (undecided).

Thank you.

 

[RegionRat]

Since you asked for opinions, my guess is you may be okay for 600 yards, but going out to 1200 routinely at 1/4 MOA is difficult unless everything (ammo and gun) is state of the art and your driving is way above average.

The ChargeMaster is probably okay for the first 600 yards, but you will likely need an upgrade to hold 1/4 MOA at 1200 yards.

Out at distances past 600 yards, the velocity stats become sensitive to charge tolerance, bullet quality, and brass prep. (Some folks add in topics like primer sorting which also require a better scale.)

Your ChargeMaster is okay for bullet and brass sorting, but you will likely need an upgrade to achieve state of the art velocity stats.

The ground rules say we will assume the driver and gun are capable, but chamber dimensions and brass prep must be coordinated with brass and dies in order to hold the performance levels you laid out. It is worth mentioning that the necks, dies, and chamber will only work at those levels if coordinated, for example no-turn versus turned necks.

Controlling the BC of the bullets may require sorting and tipping controls.
In addition to gaging the brass and bullets, you may want to consider pointing them as you strive to shoot at distance. Getting a decent percentage at 0.4 - 0.5 MOA straight from the box at 600 is routine, but 1/4 MOA at 1200 is not.

I noticed you mentioned a wet tumbler, but not a dry tumbler?
A wet tumbler isn't the best for removing case lube, and if you over-do it with a wet tumbler you end up with the possible creation of issues with peening the mouths of the cases as well as difficulty controlling the friction in the necks. I would consider a dry tumbler.

Lapua brass is capable of state of the art performance in no-turn context. The case prep tools you mentioned are capable and newer tooling will not necessarily move up your performance even without neck turning or annealing. Those processes have the possibility to assist with consistency and tuning, but are not necessarily mandatory if you compensate for them.

While your journey to 1/4 MOA at 1200 is under way, you will learn about careful brass prep and tuning. With the few suggestions made above, you can get going with the tools you already have.

I would also suggest visiting some of the club matches or even the bigger matches with the type of shooting you intend to pursue in order to get a more realistic view of how difficult 1/4 MOA is out at distances beyond 600 yards.

Good Luck on your journey.

 

[big5ifty]

Your reloading equipment is adequate for precision reloads.

Do you have custom built benchrest quality precision rifles ? If not, you won't get quarter MOA at 1200, no matter how expensive the reloading equipment gets.

People make a fuss over the 0.1 grains resolution of the scale as not being precise enough.

In the real world, the effect of all other factors on trajectory render it practically useless. I say this because people who weigh powder to under 0.1 grains do not weigh their primer compound at all. Not the primer - the primer compound. That little drop of primer compound is equivalent to at least one grain of powder, and it's not metered to any great degree of precision in the primer manufacturing process.

Low ES does not equal small groups. Low ES may be measured with the occurrence of small groups, but neither occurs because of the other.

 

[R.Morehouse]

Your reloading stuff IMO is fine. Personally, not a fan of the steel pin thing (I like to leave some carbon in the necks). Make up a few rounds and check them on your concentricity tool then put that on the shelf, you are making straight ammo. Don't know what you have for a gun, but if your barrel and loaded ammo will put them through the same ragged little hole at 100 you may be good to go at distance. I suggest you get some flags to shoot over for your 100yd load assessment. With that being said, shooting out to 1200 the wind will have more to say to your shot than anything else........My guns use premium barrels chambered by a smith that was set up to make a custom set of dies from my reamer......I think custom dies are very important to the overall quest for quality match-winning ammo.........Best Of Luck...........Merry Christmas

Regards
Rick

 

[coldboreshot]

Perhaps a modest annealing machine and I'd say your good to go.
You don't need state-of-the-art equipment to hit 1/4 moa at 1000yds. I have, and many others I know have done it with basically the same or similiar equipment you have listed. I find that many who tout state-of-the-art, usually have some kind of vested interest in such products. Not everyone is willing to drain their bank accounts though. Take your time during your reloading and be as consistent as possible

 

[K22]

The Wilson case gauge is a fine "qualitative" tool however you would be better served with a bump gauge and caliper for setting up your dies for the proper case head space. The latter yield "quantitative" data and is more useful.

For the level of precision that you are seeking, setting precise neck tension will be critical. Therefore, you should consider bushing dies and neck turning. Also annealing should be considered. I personally don't use these methods, but the extreme precision guys I know do. Talk to them and get their opinions.

I know your post is directed towards reloading equipment, but I believe finding the optimum bullet for your rifle will be just as important to precision shooting. It has been my experience that this is perhaps the most critical component in precision shooting.

 

[Doom]

The Chargemaster is probably more accurate than most realize but because of its low display resolution it may always be a question. If the finances allow then a more accurate scale may be an option you want to consider for verification.

I would also suggest dry tumbling as opposed to wet or ultrasonic.

 

[JimSC]

the biggest obstacle will be the yourself, so I suggest you spend a couple of seasons with mid range gear and when you can consistently get .5 MOA 10 + round groups at 600 - 1000 then go out and buy the best custom rifle you can afford and start working on that .25 moa. I have seen a lot of guys try and do it the other way around and that $6K rifle ends up gathering dust when they realize the time and talent the sport requires.

 

[Doom]

The equipment needs to be able to create rounds of sufficient consistency to routinely achieve 1/4 MOA accuracy at 100 - 1200 yards.

I know this thread is about equipment but I feel compelled to comment on the implications of this statement. As @JimSC has mentioned about other factors, maintaining 1/4 MOA accuracy to 1200 yds in a cartridge such as the 6.5x47 from ammunition is implying a realistic extreme spread of ~7 fps. This is a totally unrealistic expectation of reloading consistency. To achieve that level of consistency for 68% of the loads would require a realistic standard deviation of 3.5 fps!

In perspective it's equivalent to misreading the average wind by 0.3 mph over 1200yds.

 

[JFrank]

For long range expectations, I would suggest sticking to reality and if one day a shooter gets the stars to align he may get a group near 1/4 minute at 1k but it is not something that is going to happen on a regular basis.

 

[RegionRat]

@Doom , @SPJ Yup.

If it were as easy as some claim, they would be setting the records and standing on the podiums wouldn't they.....

 

[JFrank]

I’ve pulled hundreds of LR targets and only seen a handful of 1/4 minute groups

 

[Phil3]

Since you asked for opinions, my guess is you may be okay for 600 yards, but going out to 1200 routinely at 1/4 MOA is difficult unless everything (ammo and gun) is state of the art and your driving is way above average.

The ChargeMaster is probably okay for the first 600 yards, but you will likely need an upgrade to hold 1/4 MOA at 1200 yards.

Out at distances past 600 yards, the velocity stats become sensitive to charge tolerance, bullet quality, and brass prep. (Some folks add in topics like primer sorting which also require a better scale.)

Your ChargeMaster is okay for bullet and brass sorting, but you will likely need an upgrade to achieve state of the art velocity stats.

The ground rules say we will assume the driver and gun are capable, but chamber dimensions and brass prep must be coordinated with brass and dies in order to hold the performance levels you laid out. It is worth mentioning that the necks, dies, and chamber will only work at those levels if coordinated, for example no-turn versus turned necks.

Controlling the BC of the bullets may require sorting and tipping controls.
In addition to gaging the brass and bullets, you may want to consider pointing them as you strive to shoot at distance. Getting a decent percentage at 0.4 - 0.5 MOA straight from the box at 600 is routine, but 1/4 MOA at 1200 is not.

I noticed you mentioned a wet tumbler, but not a dry tumbler?
A wet tumbler isn't the best for removing case lube, and if you over-do it with a wet tumbler you end up with the possible creation of issues with peening the mouths of the cases as well as difficulty controlling the friction in the necks. I would consider a dry tumbler.

Lapua brass is capable of state of the art performance in no-turn context. The case prep tools you mentioned are capable and newer tooling will not necessarily move up your performance even without neck turning or annealing. Those processes have the possibility to assist with consistency and tuning, but are not necessarily mandatory if you compensate for them.

While your journey to 1/4 MOA at 1200 is under way, you will learn about careful brass prep and tuning. With the few suggestions made above, you can get going with the tools you already have.

I would also suggest visiting some of the club matches or even the bigger matches with the type of shooting you intend to pursue in order to get a more realistic view of how difficult 1/4 MOA is out at distances beyond 600 yards.

Good Luck on your journey.

Thank you for this thorough reply. I understand all you stated, but have a few questions.

If the ChargeMaster 1500 (CM) is inadequate to achieve stated goals beyond 600, what powder measuring and dispensing equipment is recommended?

A dry tumbler is one of the things I forgot to add to my list. I have one, and will use given your comments on wet tumblers.

How does one "compensate" for not annealing or not neck turning? I do neither right now, but may anneal.

I am in rural northern Nevada, but will see what is happening with matches.

I am little surprised no-one had an issue with the Forster dies or Co-Ax press. One person did mention match level custom dies. There are much more expensive brands of these items our there, which I thought might be an indicator they are superior in some way.

I also wish to say if my expectations are beyond what is reasonable for my style of shooting, budget, etc, then I will dial back my expectations. The comments here have already helped in that regard. If I do not directly answer anyone's reply, it is because it is understood and have no other questions or comments. I do read every comment.

 

[RegionRat]

I’ve pulled hundreds of LR targets and only seen a handful of 1/4 minute groups

Agree. Goal setting and tenacity are required when it comes to coming closer and closer to state of the art shooting, be it speed, precision, or accuracy.

This was why the OP will get some suggestions to visit with the games he plans to play. Even a look at the results pages in the competition sections on this forum prove what we are telling him.

The OP will be fine with the equipment he has till he has burned through a few barrels. By then, he will be the one on the forum answering the questions, hopefully with some objectivity and truth.

 

[Phil3]

the biggest obstacle will be the yourself, so I suggest you spend a couple of seasons with mid range gear and when you can consistently get .5 MOA 10 + round groups at 600 - 1000 then go out and buy the best custom rifle you can afford and start working on that .25 moa. I have seen a lot of guys try and do it the other way around and that $6K rifle ends up gathering dust when they realize the time and talent the sport requires.

I agree. I do have one unfired rifle in 6mmBR for short range that SHOULD shoot very well. If it does, then it is just a barrel change away from shooting 6mmBR further out. The existing barrel twist and chambering is not suited for long bullets. This should get me the practice I need.

 

[Phil3]

Agree. Goal setting and tenacity are required when it comes to coming closer and closer to state of the art shooting, be it speed, precision, or accuracy.

This was why the OP will get some suggestions to visit with the games he plans to play. Even a look at the results pages in the competition sections on this forum prove what we are telling him.

The OP will be fine with the equipment he has till he has burned through a few barrels. By then, he will be the one on the forum answering the questions, hopefully with some objectivity and truth.

Please know I shot at 1000 yards just once, in trying conditions (normal) , with a dedicated BR rifle. I also pulled targets. I saw the targets fired at that 1000 yard event. None I saw were 1/4 MOA. But, I expect everyone strives for that. The comments here help me understand what it takes to get there, even if none did on the day I shot. It is good to know I have mostly what I need. An annealer would be nice and maybe a different scale. I have a LabRadar so can compile useful data from that.

 

[RegionRat]

If the ChargeMaster 1500 (CM) is inadequate to achieve stated goals beyond 600, what powder measuring and dispensing equipment is recommended?

I missed the mark based on your question.... but you are asking a fair question.

I am not saying the ChargeMaster needs an immediate change.

I am saying you will learn that composite statistics become important. Even without a formal education in engineering and statistics, many competitors and shooters have instinctively learned that things with tolerances don't add up one to one.

If you take a statistical approach to how much the variation in powder charge matters at distance, when the sample gets large enough the result starts to show. Many folks are lulled to sleep by thinking an occasional small group sets their standard, but the vast majority are in denial.

You have to shoot many matches for a few seasons, or you can take my word for it. Tolerances don't add up one to one with normal distributions, but when the sample gets very large you will find that the ES does approach the sum of all parts.

I did weapons systems for a living. In the real world, you have to agree on the probability of a hit or miss when you sign a contract. I won't bore you with the math, but you will have a climb before you can out shoot your ChargeMaster. When you can hold a 97% (High Master) score at your game at 600 yards, you will be ready for an upgrade in order to go to 1000. That is more or less for the vast majority of shooters with the exception of a few prodigies I have seen.

How does one "compensate" for not annealing or not neck turning? I do neither right now, but may anneal.

Your tuning skills will develop. Along that journey, you will play with neck tension and sizing to determine their contribution to your results. If you don't anneal, the brass will continue to work harden with every cycle. That changes the neck tension. As long as you are aware, you can compensate and often find you can get away with many cycles before it takes you out of tune. Or, you can always set a single process by getting the material back to baseline every time by annealing. Your choice.

Neck turning is a similar issue. I recommend you always manage your brass to minimize changes between batches. starting with good quality brass can allow you to study the neck turn versus no-turn question while you climb.

I am little surprised no-one had an issue with the Forster dies or Co-Ax press. There are much more expensive brands of these items our there, which I thought might be an indicator they are superior in some way.

Nice tools are fun to have. but what you listed will not hold you back.

ETA: If you have the budget, you use a Prometheus or a FX120i+AutoTrickler or SuperTrickler. Those units are a fuss to obtain but are also very capable and popular. The SuperTrickler is in infancy at present, and all of these come from cottage industry suppliers, so be prepared for all that comes from those issues.

 

[JFrank]

@Phil3 heres an article that should help you get caught up to what’s going on at 1 k br

Sunday Gunday: Glenn Kulzer Sets 8 1000-Yard Records in 2021 « Daily Bulletin

Kulzer Sets Eight New IBS 1000-Yard IBS Benchrest Records with 6 BRA Rifle Report by Alex Wheeler 2021 was a banner year for 1000-yard Benchrest. Glenn Kulzer of Dillon, Montana had a season that will go down in history. Glenn set eight IBS records in 2021 at the Deep Creek range in Missoula...

bulletin.accurateshooter.com

 

[RegionRat]

Just an excerpt...

"
Glenn’s loading process is pretty simple. He full-length sizes every time, bumping the shoulders back about .003″. Powder is weighed to the kernel, and bullets are seated with a Wilson seater. NOTE: Glenn does does not anneal his brass. He sorts primers by weight but does not otherwise measure them by dimensions. He seats the primers by feel using a relatively inexpensive primer seating tool — nothing fancy. "

So, Glenn's charges are important to him, and at the same time he does not anneal. You can learn to manage brass and compensate instead. YMMV

 

[K22]

the biggest obstacle will be the yourself, so I suggest you spend a couple of seasons with mid range gear and when you can consistently get .5 MOA 10 + round groups at 600 - 1000 then go out and buy the best custom rifle you can afford and start working on that .25 moa. I have seen a lot of guys try and do it the other way around and that $6K rifle ends up gathering dust when they realize the time and talent the sport requires.

I saw this exact movie play out when I shot competitive precision pistol. A few affluent guys thought if the purchased the top pistol and ammo they would automatically be a master class shooter. They were in for a rude awakening; it takes hours upon hours of structure and focused practice to achieve top scores in the competitive shooting sports.

Most of them gave up in frustration since they didn't want to spend the effort and time. Incidentally, one of our top shooters on the team used a Hi Standard Citation Model Pistol with Remington Standard Velocity Ammo in the rim fire stage, the latter in the 70's and 80's was the poor man's target ammo.