• This Forum is for adults 18 years of age or over. By continuing to use this Forum you are confirming that you are 18 or older. No content shall be viewed by any person under 18 in California.

UN gun treaty and US gun owners

Status
Not open for further replies.
UN arms treaty could put U.S. gun owners in foreign sights, say critics

Published July 11, 2012
FoxNews.com

UNITED NATIONS – A treaty being hammered out this month at the United Nations -- with Iran playing a key role -- could expose the records of America's gun owners to foreign governments -- and, critics warn, eventually put the Second Amendment on global trial.

International talks in New York are going on throughout July on the final wording of the so-called Arms Trade Treaty, which supporters such as Amnesty International USA say would rein in unregulated weapons that kill an estimated 1,500 people daily around the world. But critics, including the National Rifle Association’s Wayne LaPierre, warn the treaty would mark a major step toward the eventual erosion of the U.S. Constitution’s Second Amendment gun-ownership rights.

Americans “just don’t want the UN to be acting as a global nanny with a global permission slip stating whether they can own a gun or not,” LaPierre said. “It cheapens our rights as American citizens, and weakens our sovereignty,” he warned in an exclusive interview with FoxNews.com from the halls of the UN negotiating chambers.

[pullquote]

The world body has already been criticized for appointing Iran to a key role in the talks, even as Tehran stands accused by the UN of arming Syrian President Bashar al-Assad's bloody crackdown on rebels. The Obama administration in 2009 reversed Bush administration policy by agreeing to take part in the talks. But in another exclusive interview with FoxNews.com, the top government official on the issue under President Bush says he’s seen nothing new to convince him the U.S. should be at the table today.

While the treaty’s details are still under discussion, the document could straitjacket U.S. foreign policy to the point where Washington could be restricted from helping arm friends such as Taiwan and Israel, said Greg Suchan, Deputy Assistant Secretary in the State Department’s Bureau of Political-Military Affairs from 2000 to 2007.

Suchan also highlighted ongoing concern that the treaty may end up giving foreigners access to U.S. gun-ownership records.

On that score, LaPierre, who serves as NRA executive vice president, warns that the “UN’s refusal” to remove civilian firearms and ammunition from the scope of the treaty amounts to a declaration that only governments should be gun owners.

But he revealed he was set Wednesday to tell the UN gathering that 58 U.S. senators had signed a letter saying that they would refuse to ratify any treaty that includes controls over civilian guns or ammunition.

Ratification by two-thirds of the Senate is necessary before an international treaty negotiated by the executive branch can become U.S. law. But the treaty could still go into effect elsewhere once 65 countries ratify it. Such a development could change the pattern of world arms transfers and reduce the U.S. share, which stands at about 40 percent of up to $60 billion in global deals.

The Bush administration opposed a 2006 UN General Assembly resolution launching the treaty process, but President Obama decided the U.S. would take part on condition the final agreement be reached by consensus -- thereby giving any of the 193 participating states an effective veto.

The safeguard is insufficient for opponents of the U.S. participation, not least because UN talks invariably involve compromise.

“The administration swears they have a whole bunch of red lines, and they will block consensus if anyone crosses them,” said Suchan, now a government relations consultant as senior associate with the Commonwealth Consulting Corporation in Arlington, Va.

“But the dynamics of international negotiations are that once you get 90 percent of what you seek, you say, ‘Maybe there is a way we can finesse the final 10 percent.’”

A clause permitting arms transfers solely between UN member states would allow UN member China to object to U.S. arms sales to Taiwan, a non-UN member that China considers to be a renegade province.

This would be highly problematic for the U.S. at a time when Beijing is engaged in an unprecedented arms buildup.

Another fear is that Arab or other states critical of Israel may use any treaty language on human rights standards to argue against U.S. arms transfers to the Israeli government – much in the same way they currently use the UN Human Rights Council to repeatedly condemn Israel.

Suchan said U.S. arms trade law is seen as the global “gold standard” for regulating arms transfers, but doubted many countries would be willing to raise the bar that high. Instead, the treaty that emerges is expected to set a lower global standard – which Suchan said would have the effect of reducing Washington’s ability to press for voluntary arms embargoes against rogue states.

“We might want to urge a country to not sell arms to a state whose government is particularly odious,” Suchan explained.

“But that government could then ask whether the sale is prohibited under the Arms Trade Treaty – and if it is not, they would argue they are meeting the international standard.”

U.S. gun lobby concern focuses on the emphasis the treaty places on governmental – as opposed to individual – rights to guns, LaPierre explained.

“They’re trying to impose a UN policy that gives guns to the governments – but the UN doesn’t in turn make moral judgments as to whether these governments are good or bad,” he said.

“If you’re the government, you get the guns, if you’re a civilian, you don’t. But this will just end up helping evil governments and tyrants.”

For LaPierre, the emphasis he sees at the UN on governmental rights reflects what he believes is a wider international tradition that contrasts with the historical American emphasis on individual rights.

“The UN view is that governments – not individual citizens – ought to protect people,” he said, signaling that this principle permeates the draft that negotiators are currently working with.

LaPierre says the treaty that is likely to emerge will have the effect of squeezing individual gun owners in the United States and elsewhere by imposing on them an onerous collection of regulations.

“If they get this through, then what comes along is the institutionalizing of the whole gun control-ban movement within the bureaucracy of UN – with a permanent funding mechanism that we [in America] will be mainly paying for,” he said.

“The world’s worst human rights abusers will end up voting for this, while the Obama administration has not drawn a line in the sand like the previous administration did. Instead, it is trying to be a part of this train wreck because they think they can somehow finesse it. But, to me, there is no finessing the individual freedoms of American citizens.”

Steven Edwards is a UN-based freelance journalist

FYI speak to your elected reps

Bob
 
The UN should be expelled form the USA for treason against its host citizenry. I am so sick of other govt's being involved in our rights under our constitution. I cant believe the the un would allow iran any latitude considering their history of being a violent ,terroristic society. It must stop now.
 
Sooner or later, WE will disarm ourselves anyway
WE are not going to prevent it, or do anything about it
So our 2nd amendment failed to meet intent, as WE don't deserve it

WE are just a mob of cowards
WE blame & complain only, about losing something that is solely there -to prevent it's loss
So our 1st amendment still provides, but what
 
I think I posted this, but if not, here it is. I received it last week It is from one of my Texas US senators.

Dear Friend:
Thank you for contacting me regarding the United Nations Small Arms Treaty. I welcome your thoughts and comments.

I support Senator Jerry Moran (R-KS) in his efforts to prevent any taxpayer funds from being expended in support of negotiation of this United Nations treaty. Last year, I signed a letter to President Barack Obama, along with many of my colleagues, expressing strong opposition to the U.S. even being a party to negotiations.

Any treaty would need two-thirds of the Senate in order to be approved. Although my term in the Senate ends in January 2013, I do not foresee the necessary Senate support to achieve ratification, even if the Obama Administration elects to move forward.

I appreciate hearing from you, and I hope that you will not hesitate to contact me on any issue that is important to you.

Sincerely,
Kay Bailey Hutchison
United States Senator

284 Russell Senate Office Building
Washington, DC 20510
202-224-5922 (tel)
202-224-0776 (fax)
http://hutchison.senate.gov
 
mikecr said:
Sooner or later, WE will disarm ourselves anyway
WE are not going to prevent it, or do anything about it
So our 2nd amendment failed to meet intent, as WE don't deserve it

WE are just a mob of cowards
WE blame & complain only, about losing something that is solely there -to prevent it's loss
So our 1st amendment still provides, but what

I respectfully disagree. No treaty will be ratified by the Congress that effectively negates the Constitution, and the NRA would tie that up in court until the Supremes ruled in unconsitutional (which at least the current court would likely do (though Roberts is now suspect... ;)).

I'd like to think that this one will be the line in the sand for gun owners.
 
If it's false, why has the NRA, and many other groups talking about it conclude that if signed (the treaty) it will superseed the 2nd amendment! This will take our gun right away!!!!!!!

Steve
 
let me ask a question..is it not WE THE PEOPLE?. not the goverment..
I say the goverment does not have the right to make that decision on their own..
WE THE PEOPLE say NO.. And get the hell out!
hey i know ,,this is a demorcracy lets take a vote..give up your guns.. yes or no..

I VOTE NO!

Oh wait i think i see a black helicopter, got to go...
 
Ohio1 you need to check before you proclaim---Bob

Wayne LaPierre's remarks before the United Nations in opposition to the UN Arms Trade Treaty, July 2011

June 2012 Standing Guard: "Reject The U.N.'s Gun-Ban Fantasy"

Posted on May 22, 2012


by Wayne LaPierre, NRA Executive Vice President

The moment President Obama reversed the Bush administration’s opposition to U.N.-mandated international gun control, he placed Second Amendment freedom in immediate danger.

This summer, unelected officials from around the world will convene in New York City for a series of meetings aimed at ending American firearm freedoms.

In July, they’ll discuss the U.N. Arms Trade Treaty (ATT)—a maze of restrictions that without strong involvement by your NRA and other pro-freedom groups could essentially cripple the American firearm industry, treating civilian firearms and ammunition the same as warships or attack helicopters.

Then, for two weeks beginning on August 27, they’ll be back again to work on the u.n. Programme of Action on Small Arms and Light Weapons (POA). Consider it the overarching U.N. blueprint for guns and gun control.

But on top of the ATT and the POA, there’s the Programme for Conventional Ammunition Stockpile Management, the U.N. Firearms Protocol and more.

If you’re confused, it’s by design. The U.N. hides its intentions behind impenetrable labyrinths of bureaucracy, paperwork, regulations and elite-speak. They soften their schemes through slow, mind-numbing processes, committees and concessions.

Behind every program is a buffet of government encroachment tools: tracking, tracing, restriction, regulation, surveillance, microstamping and more.

But that’s just the start. If we give even an inch to the U.N.’s one-world gun-banners, an unimpeachable global bureaucracy will spring up to enforce every new rule, and we’ll never regain our lost freedoms.

We stand in direct contrast with the rest of the world in terms of human freedom—and given the chance, they’ll impose their worldview on us.

They believe the government is the sovereign. We believe the sovereign is the individual.

They believe government can provide for our security. But history proves that’s not true.

The idea that any individual citizen would look to the U.N. for security is undermined by the entire history of the U.N. itself. It’s a history of failure, tyranny and abuse.

The U.N. failed every good person and family in Darfur, Bosnia, Rwanda and Uganda. They’re failing millions of people around the world right now.

Their member list reads like a “who’s who” of human rights abusers. Last summer, I went to New York to testify before them. I stood in front of representatives from China, North Korea, Cuba, Syria, Sudan—all those great bastions of freedom.

How can any straight-faced peace-keeping body justify admitting vendors of violence like those? The hypocrisy of some of the most oppressive governments lecturing the world from the U.N. Human Rights Council is sickening.

Nothing offends Americans like an elitist attack on their way of life. The world’s utopians don’t understand, and can’t understand, how deeply freedom is ingrained in our culture. That’s why we do more to defend it than anyone else in the world.

We are the sons and daughters of Thomas Jefferson, who said, “No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms.”

And Samuel Adams, who said, “Let the Constitution never be construed to authorize Congress … to prevent the people of the United States, who are peaceable citizens, from keeping their own arms.”

And Patrick Henry, who said, “The great object is that every man be armed.”

The truth is, people around the world don’t need more government. They need more freedom. The right to keep and bear arms is as relevant and modern an idea as anything in our society today.

One of the highlights of my time with the NRA was a few minutes I got to spend with a special group of young people. They came to my office at NRA Headquarters while visiting the United States for the first time from their native China. As kids, they saw Tiananmen Square first-hand—people who thirsted for freedom so greatly they stood in front of tanks for it.

And they told me that experience taught them how incredible the Second Amendment was. And they said we should never give up in this fight because it’s a fight for people like them and for oppressed people everywhere.

Deep down, everyone shares a right, a burning desire, to be free. The Second Amendment guarantees that freedom. That’s why it’s history’s most valuable, most cherished, most irreplaceable idea. And no amount of United Nations-funded studies, statistics, commissions and seminars will ever prove otherwise.

That’s why the NRA is going to fight this U.N. attack on human freedom with all of our power.

America is still a beacon for the rest of the world … proof that ordinary people can be trusted with extraordinary power … that set free, we can live in peace, govern ourselves and control our own fates.

We reject the U.N. notion that world peace is only possible through an all-powerful bureaucracy, or an all-knowing system of oppression, suppression, restriction and regulation.

We hold in our Constitution the most precious, unique and hopeful human freedoms mankind has ever known.

It’s our duty to defend them.
 
I think our founding father George Washington had the right idea. When he disagreed with how the government was governing, he picked up a gun and shot them.
 
I myself don't know what parts of this are true or false but I do know this; the thought that we don't absolutely positively know something like this couldn't happen makes me worry for our freedoms.
 
If this were ever to happen I'd either end up in jail or dead. Of course I'll eventually be dead no matter what but I'd like to stretch that time out a bit ;D

There is no way in hell that I'm turning my guns over so the government can protect me.

When was the last time our government was able to manage ANYTHING effectively? (retorical question)
 
fr3db3ar said:
When was the last time our government was able to manage ANYTHING effectively? (retorical question)

We just need more government oversight of government corruption!

(that was literally one politicians response to the resent GSA scandal)
 
80,000,000 Gun Qwners---4,000,000 NRA members---Don't know num of GunOwners of America-I think lesss than 1,000,000-----To the 76,000,000 not members, go on out and waste your time and $$$ on stuff that the next day don't know where it went and what for. All the big talk about Gov will not take my guns, I don't want to fight Special Force troops, I'm 64 years old with no military traing. NRA is not perfect and IF GOA had NRA's $$ and power it would be great. If both groups just doubled in size, you could not dig the antigun politicians from under their beds and there would still be 72,000,000 gun qwners riding on their shirt tails. This thing starts at the bottom "US, the gun qwners" Japan once called us lazy pertaining to education so pertaining to what happens to our gun rights WILL WE BE LAZY OR WILL WE GET OFF OUR A** AND START TELLING OUR REPS +PUT SOME $$$ INTO THE CAUSE. Please, every day doing nothing is 1 day closer to someone telling us to do something we sure don't want to do. GOD BLESS THE USA Have a good day, we are still free today.--hayboy
 
Ohio1 said:
If it's false, why has the NRA, and many other groups talking about it conclude that if signed (the treaty) it will superseed the 2nd amendment! This will take our gun right away!!!!!!!

Steve
to create fear and rake in the cash based on that fear...many political organizations use that tactic.
 
Cut and paste from a friend who sent it to me. :)

This is B.S> yet again. Sorry for the long post but take the time to copy it and send to everybody you know.

My old grandpa said to me ‘Son, there comes a time in every man’s life when he stops bustin’ knuckles and starts bustin’ caps and usually it’s when he becomes too old to
take an *** whoopin.’

I don’t carry a gun to kill people. I carry a gun to keep from being killed.

I don’t carry a gun to scare people. I carry a gun because sometimes this world can be a scary place.

I don’t carry a gun because I’m paranoid. I carry a gun because there are real threats in the world.

I don’t carry a gun because I’m evil. I carry a gun because I have lived long enough to see the evil in the world.

I don’t carry a gun because I hate the government. I carry a gun because I understand the limitations of government.

I don’t carry a gun because I’m angry. I carry a gun so that I don’t have to spend the rest of my life hating myself for failing to be prepared.

I don’t carry a gun because I want to shoot someone. I carry a gun because I want to die at a ripe old age in my bed, and not on a sidewalk
somewhere tomorrow afternoon.

I don’t carry a gun because I’m a cowboy. I carry a gun because, when I die and go to heaven, I want to be a cowboy.

I don’t carry a gun to make me feel like a man. I carry a gun because men know how to take care of themselves and the ones they love.

I don’t carry a gun because I feel inadequate. I carry a gun because unarmed and facing three armed thugs, I am inadequate.

I don’t carry a gun because I love it. I carry a gun because I love life and the people who make it meaningful to me.

Police protection is an oxymoron. Free citizens must protect themselves. Police
do not protect you from crime, they usually just investigate the crime after it happens and then call someone in to clean up the mess.

Personally, I carry a gun because I’m too young to die and too old to take an *** whoopin’…..
**********************************************
A LITTLE GUN HISTORY

In 1929, the Soviet Union established gun control. From 1929
to 1953, about 20 million dissidents, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
——————————

In 1911, Turkey established gun control. From 1915 to 1917, 1.5 million Armenians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated. ——————————

Germany established gun control in 1938 and from 1939 to 1945, a total of 13 million Jews and others who were unable to defend themselves were rounded up and exterminated.
——————————

China established gun control in 1935. From 1948 to 1952, 20 million political dissidents, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
——————————

Guatemala established gun control in 1964. From 1964 to 1981, 100,000 Mayan Indians, unable
to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
—- ————- ————-

Uganda established gun control in 1970. From 1971 to 1979, 300,000 Christians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
——————————

Cambodia established gun control in 1956. From 1975 to 1977, one million educated people, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
—————————–

Defenseless people rounded up and exterminated in the 20th Century because of gun control: 56 million.
——————————

You won’t see this
data on the US evening news, or hear politicians disseminating this information.

Guns in the hands of honest citizens save lives and property and, yes, gun-control laws adversely affect only the law-abiding citizens.

Take note my fellow Americans, before it’s too late!

The next time someone talks in favor of gun control, please remind them of this history lesson.

With guns, we are ‘citizens’. Without them, we are ‘subjects’. During WW II the Japanese decided not to invade America because they knew most Americans were ARMED!

If you value your freedom, please spread this anti gun-control message to all of your friends.

The purpose of fighting is to win. There is no possible victory in defense. The sword is more important than the shield, and skill is more important than either. The final
weapon is the brain. All else is supplemental.

SWITZERLAND ISSUES EVERY HOUSEHOLD A GUN!
SWITZERLAND’S GOVERNMENT TRAINS EVERY ADULT THEY ISSUE A RIFLE.SWITZERLAND HAS THE LOWEST GUN RELATED CRIME RATE OF ANY CIVILIZED COUNTRY IN THE WORLD!!! IT’S A NO BRAINER! DON’T LET OUR GOVERNMENT WASTE MILLIONS OF OUR TAX DOLLARS IN AN EFFORT TO MAKE ALL LAW ABIDING CITIZENS AN EASY TARGET.

Frank
 
Steve, whether you want to believe this or not that's up to you. This is for real and the negotiations are being discussed now.http://townhall.com/tipsheet/katiepavlich/2012/07/11/wanye_lapierre_to_un_americans_will_never_surrender_the_second_amendent. another tidbit: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JRG9faggb-4&feature=relmfu. and another: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VsBAUNo53xU. You be the judge. We can either unite and fight this legally with calls, letters, emails and money or left to fight it in a more unpleasant manner. Join the NRA and/or GOA and support them with your time and money. I for one must work to survive so I'll donate my money to pay for someone else to go and do my bidding for our rights. What about you?
 
Taken from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_and_the_International_Criminal_Court#Incompatibility_with_the_U.S._Constitution


Particular U.S. ratification contingencies

A treaty becomes part of the municipal law of a nation only when the treaty has been ratified. In the US, the constitution gives the President power to negotiate treaties under Article II. The President must then submit a treaty to the Senate for advice and consent for ratification. The Senate must approve the treaty by a two-thirds majority before it can take effect. The Senate may submit amendments, reservations, or explanations to the President regarding the treaty. Once ratified, treaties are generally self-executing—at least from the perspective of other nations—as the ratifying state fully binds itself to the treaty as a matter of the public international law and of national honor and good faith. In the US, however, a treaty does not immediately become effective as US domestic law upon entry into force, which occurs only if the treaty is self-executing. In Foster v. Neilson 27 U.S. 253 (1829), the US Supreme Court explained that treaties are self-executing if accompanying legislation is not necessary for implementation. A treaty requiring additional action is not self-executing; it would create an international obligation for the US, but would have no effect on domestic law. (Id. 314-315).

However, entrenched provisions of municipal law—such as the constitution of a state party or other fundamental laws—may cause the treaty not to be fully executable in municipal law if it conflicts with those entrenched provisions. Article VI of the US Constitution contains the supremacy clause, which gives all treaties ratified in accordance with the constitution the effect of federal law. In the US, if a treaty is found to be self-executing it will preempt inconsistent state law and previous legislation. This issue was addressed by the US Supreme Court in Ware v. Hylton 3 U.S. 199 (1796), where it found that the treaty at issue was self-executing and struck down an inconsistent state law. (Id. 284).[size=10pt] However, a treaty cannot preempt the Constitution itself (as held in the 1957 US Supreme Court case, Reid v. Covert). Thus, in order for a treaty to be executable within the United States, it might be necessary for the Constitution to be amended. Otherwise, treaty provisions could potentially be found unconstitutional and consequently struck down by the courts[/size].

Pick your fights wisely
 
I dont think anybody wants to see this get to the point of Senate ratification.
Way to close for BO and is cronies to enact.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Upgrades & Donations

This Forum's expenses are primarily paid by member contributions. You can upgrade your Forum membership in seconds. Gold and Silver members get unlimited FREE classifieds for one year. Gold members can upload custom avatars.


Click Upgrade Membership Button ABOVE to get Gold or Silver Status.

You can also donate any amount, large or small, with the button below. Include your Forum Name in the PayPal Notes field.


To DONATE by CHECK, or make a recurring donation, CLICK HERE to learn how.

Forum statistics

Threads
166,358
Messages
2,216,990
Members
79,565
Latest member
kwcabin3
Back
Top