Ultimate F-TR Project

[effendude]

Ok , here goes. If you were to build the ultimate F-TR rifle, what would you use? I have several F-class rifles, but nothing great. A couple Savage F-class rifles, with one currently becoming a .308, Remington M700's, and a Winchester OTC rifle that I am currently using for competition. All shoot good, but not great. I have shot 197-6x the last couple weeks at 600 yards in challlenging but not tough conditions. I am looking to step up my game, so to speak.

What would you recommend for a full custom F-TR rifle? I have a hankering for a 3 lug BAT, dual port action with a 5R/5C barrel in a good stock from McMilllian, Manners, etc.

Comments?
Scott

 

[mdavis78102]

I would consider who to do the build first and ask him what he likes to work with. It always helps when the smith believes in the products he's working with..

 

[SpencerC]

I've been going through the same thought process lately trying to decide what I would like to build for next year as I shoot a Shilen barreled Savage .223/90VLD combo in F T/R, but, would like to upgrade for the same reasons as yourself. Just looking for those couple extra points that make all the difference as the match goes on.

In my opinion, its hard to beat a Barnard action and trigger for the price so that's the action I would use, Krieger or Broughton barrel, I'd probably just make my own stock, Sightron 10-50x60 or NF NXS 12-42x56 (quite a price difference but that's what I've narrowed it down to) I have been shooting a .223/90VLD combo for a couple years but may look into a .308/185 for next year for simplicity sake.

That's just my take on it, and who knows, it could all change tomorrow hahaha.

 

[deadlyswift]

Here is a great place to start your search. http://www.precisionriflesales.com/ I have first hand experience with PR&T. Ray Bowman knows what he is doing when it comes to building a Comp rifle. He is a F/open, FTR shooter, and BR shooter himself. So he knows what you can or can't use to make weight. Give Ray Bowman a call at 336-214-5381. Ray can do anything you want. I can promise you.... what ever you decided PR&T will build exactly to your specifications. It would definitely be a Ultimate Rifle!

 

[CJ6]

Barnard,Satern, McMillan

 

[effendude]

Thanks for the suggestions. I am giving the Barnard another look, sounds great and includes a excellent trigger for the price. I think it is time to get moving...
Scott

 

[Laurie]

Thanks for the suggestions. I am giving the Barnard another look, sounds great and includes a excellent trigger for the price. I think it is time to get moving...
Scott

Superb action and trigger; very good value. Very popular amongst GB F-Class and F/TR top competitors. Love them myself - I've got two Barnard Model P action rifles in my cabinet.

But ..... it's heavy at around 3lb i/c trigger. The hardest part of building 'the ultimate F/TR rifle' is getting everything you think you need and want while staying within the 8.25kg (18lb 2oz) all-up weight limit i/c bi-pod. If you choose the Barnard P, you may have to sacrifice a pound elsewhere in scope spec going for a light fixed power like the Weaver T-series or Sightron BR 42mm objective lens models; or go down a step in barrel external contour to a medium or Heavy Palma profile; use a Harris type bi-pod ... or whatever.

An alternative Barnard worth considering is the lighter smaller profile Barnard S that uses the same footprint as the Remington 700, but is a proper and very stiff 3-lug single shot action. You don't get a trigger - it accepts any Remy 700 aftermarket match job. The Remy 700 footprint widens stock choice considerably too, and every US gunsmith will be familiar with stock options and bedding a 700 or 700 clone.

This action is popular here with top F/TR shooters including the reigning F/TR world champion Russell Simmonds. His Barnard S rifle was a 'Gun of the Week' on the main site, but seems to have been dropped in the revamp - there is a short piece about him re the use of a Choate stock. NB Russell is the 2010 F/TR European Champion on top of the other titles listed there, runner-up by a single point in the 2010 GB F-Class Assoc national league F/TR, and is currently leading the class this season by a small margin.

http://www.accurateshooter.com/stocks/choate-tactical-stock-for-short-action-rems/

Laurie,
York, England

 

[effendude]

Laurie,
Thanks for your information. I purposely seek out your posts, regardless of topic, as they always contain much information. My plan is to start gathering all the pieces for the build and then determine what barrel contour I can use to make weight.
Scott

 

[Steve Blair]

Keep in mind that the new, height adjustable Sinclair bipod (due in August) is almost a pound lighter than the existing 2.25 lb. model. That is according to Sinclair literature.

 

[Laurie]

Keep in mind that the new, height adjustable Sinclair bipod (due in August) is almost a pound lighter than the existing 2.25 lb. model. That is according to Sinclair literature.

That's interesting Steve, and quite a feat if Sinclair manages that. John Weil's Centershot weighs 19oz, but uses carbon fibre struts in its legs, so I await the new Sinclair with interest to see how much it weighs. We're seeing 2nd generation European made bi-pods over here as well as the Sinclair and Centershot models and it's noticeable how much effort has gone into weight reduction.

Returning to the original question, remember Scott that you can get really good results with a lighter contour barrel than most people think is essential. I stick a 'Heavy Palma' contour on everything these days, and even that is probably 'overcooking it' for .308 Win and.223 Rem. My next .308W F/TR rifle will use a True-Flite 32" Match Rifle contour barrel that weighs 5.5lb to comply with British Commonwealth MR regs and is between a standard and heavy Palma profile.

My ideal rifle? - which I'm pretty sure few will share in the cartridge choice at any rate. .223 Rem cal., Barnard S action, Eliseo tubegun stock, the same specification True-Flite as I have on my Savage .223 F/TR job, 8-32X56 Sightron Series III (not convinced by ever more powerful scopes), and I'd have to think hard about the bi-pod, not that you require great inbuilt stability with the mouse gun cartridge (rat cartridge rifle as somebody called my pride and joy recently - some people are plain bad losers!), and adjustment / ease of set-up would be up front in my thoughts.

............. whether I'll get this is another matter, financial realities, the lady of the house's attitude ... etc, etc.

 

[effendude]

Laurie,
I sure can't argue with your results shooting the .223. I ran my OTC AR-15 last year as my F-TR rifle and lost to a .308 at the Minnesota championships. I did this as an experiment to see how accurate I could get the AR and if it would be competitive. I placed second in the state, but wasn't thrilled with the performance, both rifle and shooter wise. I don't think an AR has what it takes to consistently win at F-class IMHO.

This year I am shooting a .308 Winchester Model 70 OTC rifle topped with a Nightforce 8-32X scope and I do see better results in the wind. I am awaiting a Savage F-class rifle to be rebarreled to .308 so this Winchester rifle is sort of a temporary. I do like the tube gun idea, especially if there is a weight savings over a conventionally stocked rifle, and may try that with the Savage.

I will tell you, that shooting the .308 is real work compared to the .223 when shooting F-TR. Recoil, rifle hold, rifle torque all readily show on the target.

Thanks for the advice, and keep the comments coming,
Scott

 

[wwbrown]

Scott,

I would look hard at the Stiller P-1000 in a stock that you find comfortable, I own a couple of Stlller actions and have been impressed with the quality features and price point. The P-1000 is an entry level BR action and is easily tight enough to hold the necessary accuracy for F-TR. I would put a Jewell trigger on it at a weight you are comfortable with and carry a can of lighter fluid to the line in case the trigger sticks. I've never had a Jewell stick at the line but I do carry lighter fluid.

I think one of the nicer bipods is Gary's Phoenix Precision if you can handle that I think it is an excellent bipod and may be the best out there, he makes a nice uinit. The only thing I would like to see on the Phoenix Precision bipod is a little wider skis.

As much as I put into equipment, I think there are a lot of combinations that work for F-class as the big thing is wind, you can have the best rig and pull the trigger at the wrong time and score poorly. Think how many out of the box Savages are able to compete reasonably well and how with a custom barrel are able to tear the course up, I am thinking about Adam S. The key is probably having a rig that you know will perform to put your head in the right place and is comfortable to shoot so fatigue by the 3rd or 4th relay does not start to kick in. Top if off with a good scope that you know will move exactly as you tell it to and you will be set.

wade

 

[effendude]

Hi Wade,
It may be my only moment of glory, but I beat the crowd and even Adam Sunday by two points over 80 shots in tough conditions. No doubt Adam is a great shot. It was just my day, we were even up after three relays, and I held a little tighter for the fourth relay. Ben and Pat were not there to spank us all, but I felt I shot well for equipment and conditions.

F-class has evolved over the last few years to become very competitive in the Midwest. Even F-TR is becoming an equipment race of sorts. My goal is to build the best F-TR rifle I can, and work on my skills to win consistently. My OTC rifles are good, but not good enough anymore for F-class, even at the club level. I expect more, and the target demands more. I know a Remington, Savage or even the rare Winchester can be built up to win, but I honestly believe I would have saved much money over the last few years going with the custom action right away. (But I wouldn't have nearly as many fun rifles in the safe).. Maybe I will build two rifles, a .308 and a .223 and play the conditions game, shooting whichever rifle best suits the conditions. Stay tuned....
Scott

 

[RDavies]

I,m reading this with interest as well as I am building up another F class rifle. This one is a Barnard S action, with Broughton 5C HV 30" 308 barrel. My F Open gun is on a Barnard P action (and other on a Stohle) but I wanted to save weight with the smaller action. I love the Barnards, not just for the price which is very cheap in my area, but because they work so well. I have a 10-50X Sighton on my Stohle to save weight so I can make 1000yd BR LG weight and I love the scope. The 308 will be getting a Sightron 10-50X as well.
Something else I like about the Barnards is a replacement bolt is very cheap (1/3rd price of a Stohle bolt in my area). Once my 308 is up and going, I will get a 223 bolt for it as well and run it as a 223 at 300-600yds, then run it as a 308 in the longs.
I,m still looking into stocks, any ideas.

 

[effendude]

I have ordered the Barnard P action along with the vee block. Any stock recommendations. I am leaning towards a A2 style stock from McMillian or Manners as this is a F/TR rifle. The S action in .223 is next!
Scott

 

[Steve Blair]

I went with the Manners T4A, solid bottom, no swivels, cheek piece and forend rail. I wanted the long grip and bag riding section of the T4/T4A. This is for a one-off Borden action that I had built. The gun is not finished, so nothing to report, yet.

 

[Heavies]

Barnards are very well built! I like my action. Goodluck on your build.

My ideal rifle? - which I'm pretty sure few will share in the cartridge choice at any rate. .223 Rem cal., Barnard S action, Eliseo tubegun stock,

Laurie,

Very nice, and also what I am planning on doing. Only I will do a .308. Im not as good as you, yet. hehe

Does Eliseo have a chassis for the Barnard S? I want to get one, but he said he hasn't come out with it yet.

 

[Steve Blair]

Does Eliseo have a chassis for the Barnard S? I want to get one, but he said he hasn't come out with it yet.

Gary only makes a Barnard chassis for the P.

 

[Laurie]

Can't you use the Barnard S in the Remington 700 SA version of the Eliseo stock? They have the same 'footprint'

 

[Steve Blair]

Gary says that the Barnard S, being a three-lug action, does not match the slot in the R700 chassis. He also noted that the tenon length is different and would require a rebated recoil disc. While the answer is yes, with modifications, it would involve a bit of butchery and fabrication.