Looking to rebarell curent 270 win rem 700 to 30-06. I like the choice of bullets better in the 30 cal. This of course is a long action in stainless steel. I currently have this rig set up in a Bell and Carlson ultra lite stock which I am very happy with. I guess I am looking for the best hunting barrel out there. What twist rate would you recomend for bullet weights from 165 to 180 gr in weight? What kind of accuracy is the ole 06 actually capable of? I see a lot of fan fare for the 308 but little for the 06 in the accuracy department.
Ultimate 30-06?
- Thread starter GlennGTR1
- Start date
My 30-06 hunting rifle has a 1-10 twist barrel on it, and it shoots 180 grain Nosler ballistic tips very well. A 1-12 would probably do just as well and possibly gain a little velocity in the process.
As for accuracy, the old -06 can do very well in a good rifle and a skilled driver.
German Salazar seems to do very good with the -06 in prone competition, and you may want to look at his Guns of the Week (week 98 and 91) to look for some tips and inspiration. He also has a site called Riflemansjournal.com that has many good articles on the -06 as well. He is an amazing shooter and has done well with the -06 from what I have seen posted, and his articles are some of the best written I have read. If I was to build a 30-06, he is who I would ask for advice.
As for accuracy, the old -06 can do very well in a good rifle and a skilled driver.
German Salazar seems to do very good with the -06 in prone competition, and you may want to look at his Guns of the Week (week 98 and 91) to look for some tips and inspiration. He also has a site called Riflemansjournal.com that has many good articles on the -06 as well. He is an amazing shooter and has done well with the -06 from what I have seen posted, and his articles are some of the best written I have read. If I was to build a 30-06, he is who I would ask for advice.
Kenny, thanks for the kind words, I certainly appreciate it.
Glenn, for bullets up to 180 gr. there won't be any problem with a 1:12" twist but I prefer a 1:11" twist because I like to go heavier to really exploit the potential in the .30-06. I shoot 185 gr. and 190 gr. most, but a fair amount of 200 gr. as well.
I'm not a hunter, so I really can't comment on hunting bullets, but I'm sure there is a huge variety. By sticking with a 1:11" you'll have a lot of choices. If you really want to go heavier, then a 1:10" like Kenny uses would be fine and really won't give anything up to the slower twist in practical terms. I stick to the 1:11" twist because the slowest twist that will adequately stabilize a bullet is theoretically going to be the most accurate and in 1000 yard matches, I need all the accuracy I can get. Kenny's choice is probably more practical for hunting, especially in cold weather.
Poke around my website and I think you'll find plenty to read on the .30-06 and other stuff. I just added an index (lower right of the page is a link to it) to make finding articles by topic a bit easier. Enjoy your '06!
Glenn, for bullets up to 180 gr. there won't be any problem with a 1:12" twist but I prefer a 1:11" twist because I like to go heavier to really exploit the potential in the .30-06. I shoot 185 gr. and 190 gr. most, but a fair amount of 200 gr. as well.
I'm not a hunter, so I really can't comment on hunting bullets, but I'm sure there is a huge variety. By sticking with a 1:11" you'll have a lot of choices. If you really want to go heavier, then a 1:10" like Kenny uses would be fine and really won't give anything up to the slower twist in practical terms. I stick to the 1:11" twist because the slowest twist that will adequately stabilize a bullet is theoretically going to be the most accurate and in 1000 yard matches, I need all the accuracy I can get. Kenny's choice is probably more practical for hunting, especially in cold weather.
Poke around my website and I think you'll find plenty to read on the .30-06 and other stuff. I just added an index (lower right of the page is a link to it) to make finding articles by topic a bit easier. Enjoy your '06!
Since this is a hunting rifle a not a "Target" rifle there are some things to consider. You mentioned the 308. For hunting the difference between the two isn't worth talking about. The 06 case will hold more powder and you will use a slower powder than the 308, like 4350 (a favorite in the 06). A 1/10 twist is pretty much the standard for the factory 06 and a 1/12 for the 308. A 22" barrel seems to be the standard length for both in factory guns. I like a 24 or 26" tube myself.
I guess it comes down to what you plan to hunt? The nice thing about the 06 is "if it walks on either two or for legs you can shoot it with the 06" True, its not my choice for PD's or Brown Bears but you could use it.
Accuracy? In a well put together rifle with the right load it will shoot better than you can. The 06 has been used in competition since 1906.
My hunting rifle (deer rifle) is a 06 with a 24" 1/10 tube . It does me proud.
I guess it comes down to what you plan to hunt? The nice thing about the 06 is "if it walks on either two or for legs you can shoot it with the 06" True, its not my choice for PD's or Brown Bears but you could use it.
Accuracy? In a well put together rifle with the right load it will shoot better than you can. The 06 has been used in competition since 1906.
My hunting rifle (deer rifle) is a 06 with a 24" 1/10 tube . It does me proud.
German Salazar can tell you more than anyone I know about the accuracy potential of the good old .30-06 - hunters all over the U.S., and all over the world can tell you how well it works in the field. Gun writer Craig Boddington makes a great case for using it on all African Game except the really big, dangerous stuff. Noted Alaskan brown bear guide Phil Shoemaker recommends the .30-06 for the giant brownies he pursues.
The rest of us like it because it's a great cartridge for all the "normal" stuff like deer, elk, black bear, etc...
So many great bullets, 165 - 180... H4350 is all I use anymore, with 165's normally. Partitions are good, but I've never really thought the standard "cup and core" bullets were bad. I'll stick with the 1:10 twist, and of course barrel length is up to you. Chopped mine from 26" to 21" a few years ago and am happier with the shorter, handier rifle.
Regards, Guy
The rest of us like it because it's a great cartridge for all the "normal" stuff like deer, elk, black bear, etc...
So many great bullets, 165 - 180... H4350 is all I use anymore, with 165's normally. Partitions are good, but I've never really thought the standard "cup and core" bullets were bad. I'll stick with the 1:10 twist, and of course barrel length is up to you. Chopped mine from 26" to 21" a few years ago and am happier with the shorter, handier rifle.
Regards, Guy
I've never been a big fan of the 30-06 acouple years ago decide to build me one. Used a bartlein 5r 1/11 twist barrel 25 1/2" long on a win 70 action in a McMillain stock and I've used the rifle on a deer/elk hunt shooting 180gr partitions. It's a pretty good shooter.
I've got two 30-338mag one has a 1/12 twist barrel the new one I got this past spring used a Lilja 1/11 twist barrel use either 165gr or 180gr bullets.
Myself I see no point in using a 1/10 twist barrel for the 30-06. Bartlein I think is pretty close to a year out and Kreiger is out 4/6months. Best to find a gunsmith and see who's barrels he likes to use and go from there and he should be able to give you what type of accuracy to expect from his rifles.
I really got to liking the 30-06 and I think with the better barrels/bullets today makes for a good hunting rifle. I had another 30-06 build used a 1/13 twist barrel 24" long for the 165gr/150gr bullets.
Well good luck
I've got two 30-338mag one has a 1/12 twist barrel the new one I got this past spring used a Lilja 1/11 twist barrel use either 165gr or 180gr bullets.
Myself I see no point in using a 1/10 twist barrel for the 30-06. Bartlein I think is pretty close to a year out and Kreiger is out 4/6months. Best to find a gunsmith and see who's barrels he likes to use and go from there and he should be able to give you what type of accuracy to expect from his rifles.
I really got to liking the 30-06 and I think with the better barrels/bullets today makes for a good hunting rifle. I had another 30-06 build used a 1/13 twist barrel 24" long for the 165gr/150gr bullets.
Well good luck
When it comes to barrel makers, I think there are quite a few that will produce a very good product for a hunting rifle. I have a Pac-Nor barrel on my .222 that shoots very well, and I will most likely use them again. Yes, Krieger, Bartlein, Lilja and all the other big names make excellent products, but they are usually backed up for months trying to supply the extreme accuracy crowd. You can most likely get a Pac-Nor a lot quicker and still have an extremely accurate hunting rifle, probably better than anything on a factory gun.
Your not building a bench rig, so trying to squeeze the last .10MOA isn't really going to have any effect on actual field performance, and I know the deer won't know the difference! I would find someone who can deliver a quality product in a reasonable time frame.
Your not building a bench rig, so trying to squeeze the last .10MOA isn't really going to have any effect on actual field performance, and I know the deer won't know the difference! I would find someone who can deliver a quality product in a reasonable time frame.
My son recently purchased a Ruger Stainless Steel Hawkeye Left-Handed in .30/06 Springfield caliber. SO I started handloading 150 and 165 grain bullets in Hornady cases. I choose Hornady brass because they have served me so well in .243 Winchester cases. I shot his .30/06 once (one round) and decided I would reload these Behemoths, but would never squeeze off another heart-shaking round. A .243 Winnie Pooh serves me well for my purposes. Currently, I've loaded 150 grain Speer BTSP and 165 grain Nosler AccuBond in .30/06. Since a 165 grainer can take an ELK securely, is there a real need for a 180 grain bullet? Does a better .30/06 powder exist than Hodgdon H4350? Cliffy
Cliffy - I enjoy the way you put things! Would hardly consider the .30-06 a "behemoth" or a "heart-shaking round" though. Still, yes it does generate more recoil than your beloved .243 Winchester, and that really should be taken into consideration when we're looking for a cartridge to be handled by a newer shooter, unaccustomed to dealing with rifle recoil.
A lot of folks like the 180 for elk and bear. More bullet mass, hopefully better penetration, and generally very good accuracy. I used to load a lot of 180's for my .30-06 and they performed very well. Along your line of thought though, I eventually settled on 165's for my standard bullet, and have stayed there, with H4350 as the propellant.
If I was using my '06 mostly for moose, bear and elk, I'd likely have stayed with the 180's, or maybe even 200's. Dad used to hunt with nothing but 220 gr bullets from his Springfield.
There are many powders that work well with our good old .30-06 rifles, H4350 being my favorite, but I've also had very good results with H4831 and RL-22, particularly with heavier bullets.
Thanks for putting a grin on my face this morning with that behemoth heart-shaking round stuff! I like the ol' .30-06, but yeah, it does recoil more than we acknowledge, particularly in a lightweight hunting rifle.
Guy
A lot of folks like the 180 for elk and bear. More bullet mass, hopefully better penetration, and generally very good accuracy. I used to load a lot of 180's for my .30-06 and they performed very well. Along your line of thought though, I eventually settled on 165's for my standard bullet, and have stayed there, with H4350 as the propellant.
If I was using my '06 mostly for moose, bear and elk, I'd likely have stayed with the 180's, or maybe even 200's. Dad used to hunt with nothing but 220 gr bullets from his Springfield.
There are many powders that work well with our good old .30-06 rifles, H4350 being my favorite, but I've also had very good results with H4831 and RL-22, particularly with heavier bullets.
Thanks for putting a grin on my face this morning with that behemoth heart-shaking round stuff! I like the ol' .30-06, but yeah, it does recoil more than we acknowledge, particularly in a lightweight hunting rifle.
Guy
Yeah, here's the question: Why does everyone like light rifles? The just make holding still harder and recoil more. My attitude is" Just suck it up and carry whatever shoots well." My latest deer rifle is an old Rem 700 in 308 that weight 10 lbs. If I'm in shape for a western hunt, I can certainly carry an accurate rifle.
I am not sure what your definition of a light rifle is? I would say 6.5 lbs bare. When rings, scope, and sling are added you are over seven pounds. I like a rifle that is accurate and handles well. I would like to be able to reach out 400-500 yards in more open country and be able to swing quickly on a bull elk in deep timber. Having spent my time in the Marines as a young lad, I took to hart the moto travel light and fast. I like the 308 but I already have a 270 in a light weight stock that meets my weight requirements, I just want it in a 30 caliber cartridge, no magnums need apply. If I remember right there are a lot of disadvantages to building a long action 308.
If you are willing to rebarrel and get just what you want, I would suggest a 6.5-08, which turns out to be a 260 Remington. Good selection of bullets, and just enough case volume to give great velocities without burning the barrel. Or, the other option is a 6.5x55 Swede. Similar and may be a bit more popular (at least in Europe).
I don't think a 6.5-08 is what would be considered a good Elk cartridge, and the .270 is probably better. They are big tough animals, and it's going to take a bit of impact and a good wound channel to anchor one. The 6.5-08 only has a slightly bigger bullet than a .243, so it doesn't get much confidence from me on an animal that big.
I feel for a non magnum solution, the 30-06 is going to be hard to beat. Though I am unsure of how it will perform on game at 400-500 yards, as there just isn't that much open area where I hunt up here in northern New England.
I do agree with carrying a light rifle, as it's no fun lugging more weight than necessary. Personally, I like my hunting rifles to be 8lbs or less. I am in pretty good shape and often go on long hikes with up to a 55lb pack, but when I am hunting I like to pack light so I am not winded should a shot arise. It sucks trying to catch your breath while staring at a big buck.
I feel for a non magnum solution, the 30-06 is going to be hard to beat. Though I am unsure of how it will perform on game at 400-500 yards, as there just isn't that much open area where I hunt up here in northern New England.
I do agree with carrying a light rifle, as it's no fun lugging more weight than necessary. Personally, I like my hunting rifles to be 8lbs or less. I am in pretty good shape and often go on long hikes with up to a 55lb pack, but when I am hunting I like to pack light so I am not winded should a shot arise. It sucks trying to catch your breath while staring at a big buck.
Actually I don't believe within limits that the size of the hole in the barrel has any relation to the ability to take game. In this example switching from a .270 to a 30-06 is really just switching bullet choice. The case size is the same, and the energy is essentially the same. Probably the .270 has better BC's, but the bullet choice is limited. So all you really are gaining is bullet choice, at some sacrifice of optimium BC.
Elk are large deer and smaller than moose. A .270 is more than adequate and probably even ideal. In the west they are typically taken at longer distances, so BC is a bit more important.
Elk are large deer and smaller than moose. A .270 is more than adequate and probably even ideal. In the west they are typically taken at longer distances, so BC is a bit more important.
Ron, I do agree with a lot of your statement, though I feel bullet weight has a lot to do with game killing ability, as a heavier bullet will carry more kinetic energy when traveling at similar velocity, and will usually penetrate better.
Though you are completely correct about the BC at longer ranges. I really don't feel the 06 is much better than the .270, as they are both great rounds.
Elmer Keith and Jack O'Connor could never agree about the .270, and I tend to follow Keith's school of big heavy bullets. Just a matter of taste I guess. I like .30's, some guys like smaller stuff.
Though you are completely correct about the BC at longer ranges. I really don't feel the 06 is much better than the .270, as they are both great rounds.
Elmer Keith and Jack O'Connor could never agree about the .270, and I tend to follow Keith's school of big heavy bullets. Just a matter of taste I guess. I like .30's, some guys like smaller stuff.
Yes the big bore vs smaller bore debate could go (and I'm sure will go) on forever. I guess I am partial to the .264 bore size as I have owned a 264WM for over 40 years now. I know it can easily handle moose. Have not had one go more than 10-20 yards after taking a 140 grain Nosler Partition.
I think that sometimes when we look for accuracy we focus on the cartridge and barrel maker. However as we all know accuracy is about a whole bunch of little things. One aspect often overlooked, is what I would call cartridge support. Can you get quality brass, quality reloading dies, and bullets? I don't think there is anything magic about the 308 as a cartridge. It is a somewhat underpowered 30 caliber. However, the cartridge support is phenomenal because of the history and popularity of use in long range target shooting.
An example at the other end of the scale is the 264WM. It has zero cartridge support other than a good choice of bullets. It would be very difficult to get it operating as a target gun. The 30-06 is kind of between those two extremes for cartridge support. Not real popular as a target gun, so support is lacking. The other aspect is recoil in a 6.5 lb gun. I don't like the recoil in my 264, and the 30-06 which I have shot, is worse.
In an earlier post, I mentioned the 6.5x55 Swede. Forgot that it has a larger head dimension and would require a bolt replacement.
I think a good argument could be made however for using the 6.5-284 as a long range elk cartridge in a lightweight gun. Cartridge support is right up there with the 308, and long range accuracy potential is undisputed. With careful load development, I would expect you could get velocity in a 140 grain up around 3,000 fps, and with the high BC bullets available that should deliver a punch out a long distance. It is also nice to not have to deal with huge drops in the trajectory. And while recoil will not exactly be light in a 6.5 lb gun, it will be more reasonable than that of a 30-06.
A couple of links to look at if you have not seen them before.
http://www.6mmbr.com/sixfive284.html
http://www.norma.cc/content.asp?Typ=59&Lang=2&DocumentID=263&Submeny=4&Rubrik=Calibers&Title=6,5x284 Norma
I think that sometimes when we look for accuracy we focus on the cartridge and barrel maker. However as we all know accuracy is about a whole bunch of little things. One aspect often overlooked, is what I would call cartridge support. Can you get quality brass, quality reloading dies, and bullets? I don't think there is anything magic about the 308 as a cartridge. It is a somewhat underpowered 30 caliber. However, the cartridge support is phenomenal because of the history and popularity of use in long range target shooting.
An example at the other end of the scale is the 264WM. It has zero cartridge support other than a good choice of bullets. It would be very difficult to get it operating as a target gun. The 30-06 is kind of between those two extremes for cartridge support. Not real popular as a target gun, so support is lacking. The other aspect is recoil in a 6.5 lb gun. I don't like the recoil in my 264, and the 30-06 which I have shot, is worse.
In an earlier post, I mentioned the 6.5x55 Swede. Forgot that it has a larger head dimension and would require a bolt replacement.
I think a good argument could be made however for using the 6.5-284 as a long range elk cartridge in a lightweight gun. Cartridge support is right up there with the 308, and long range accuracy potential is undisputed. With careful load development, I would expect you could get velocity in a 140 grain up around 3,000 fps, and with the high BC bullets available that should deliver a punch out a long distance. It is also nice to not have to deal with huge drops in the trajectory. And while recoil will not exactly be light in a 6.5 lb gun, it will be more reasonable than that of a 30-06.
A couple of links to look at if you have not seen them before.
http://www.6mmbr.com/sixfive284.html
http://www.norma.cc/content.asp?Typ=59&Lang=2&DocumentID=263&Submeny=4&Rubrik=Calibers&Title=6,5x284 Norma
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