Two Bullet Seating Scenarios - Which Is More Accurate?

[Mozella]

The answer is YES if you live in Europe or North America but NO if you live in Australia. In zero gravity, reloading in the Space Station for example, it makes no difference.

 

[dsculley]

Personally, I think you are over-thinking it. It seems on here that guys are trying to weigh loads down to the nearest kernel of powder and now seating to the nearest ,0005". If you are shooting long range, say 600 yards or more, the wind will cause a lot more error than the few more or less kernels of powder or the .003" variation in length. Are your wind reading skills such that you are dead on over 90% of the time? I am not trying to tell you to change your methods if they work for you. I weigh loads to the nearest 0.1 gr and my length may vary by 0.005". I am in a node for both so with that variance the rounds will shoot within 0.5 moa. I prefer to spend my limited time shooting rather than in the reloading room.
If you are in the pursuit of perfect ammo and enjoy the quest that is ok. I can understand trying to eliminate as many variables as possible. Just remember to dedicate some time to leaning to read the wind. By the way, you can learn a lot shooting long range on a rainy day.

Fwiw

 

[mikeeg02]

Personally, I think you are over-thinking it. It seems on here that guys are trying to weigh loads down to the nearest kernel of powder and now seating to the nearest ,0005". If you are shooting long range, say 600 yards or more, the wind will cause a lot more error than the few more or less kernels of powder or the .003" variation in length. Are your wind reading skills such that you are dead on over 90% of the time? I am not trying to tell you to change your methods if they work for you. I weigh loads to the nearest 0.1 gr and my length may vary by 0.005". I am in a node for both so with that variance the rounds will shoot within 0.5 moa. I prefer to spend my limited time shooting rather than in the reloading room.
If you are in the pursuit of perfect ammo and enjoy the quest that is ok. I can understand trying to eliminate as many variables as possible. Just remember to dedicate some time to leaning to read the wind. By the way, you can learn a lot shooting long range on a rainy day.

Fwiw

To each their own. But when shooting long range. I like to know the only variable is the condition. So that when I adjust my shot, I'm adjusting for the condition. Not for fliers and the condition. I try to be as thorough as I can be in the loading room. I just finished loading 140 rounds for the ridgway championship match this weekend. All measured to .02 grains. All lengths set to within .0005 tolerance. That's just my discipline.

 

[kvd]

It mentions some of his methods in this article but if you search you will find tons more =) http://www.accurateshooter.com/shooting-skills/john-whidden-shares-championship-secrets/

Thank you for the link.

Ken

 

[Joe R]

The number #1 scenario is superior for several reasons:

1. Can be used with the seating force measurement press.
   
2. It has a positive stop. No matter how hard you press its going to stop at the same place each time.
   
3. Because of the above two you get unparalleled consistency if in conjunction with neck turning and annealing every time.
   
4. You can use it with a harbor press, which means you can load your rounds long and then play with seating depth at the range, without having to make extra trips.

I have those Sinclair/Wilson seating dies in 6PPC and 6 BR Norma. They are really nice. Wish they made one in 7 RSAUM.

Ken

They do. I have a standard Wilson 7 RSAUM seating seating die with a micrometer. I didn't need to go the custom route.

Kindest regards,

Joe

 

[dsculley]

Like I said, not trying to change the way you do things if they work for you. If doing the extra work gives you the confidence to shoot better then it is worth it. I don't feel that I am more prone to fliers with my method than you are with yours. If you miss or make a bad shot do you KNOW that it was a bad wind call, miss due to breakdown in form, or a flier? Lets say that with your methods your are shooting 1/8 MOA groups and with my methods i am shooting 1/2 MOA groups. If we are shooting in the same match, the winner between the two of us will be the one who makes the best wind calls/adjustments.

I am not trying to get anyone to change what they do. I am just throwing this out there for the guys who read these threads who can't afford a scale that will weigh to 0.01 gr. I don't want them to think that since they can't afford all the equipment to load to this precision that they can't be competitive. If you are truly on a node then loading to the nearest 0.1 gr with minor variations in seating depth will not cause fliers. For most shooters, wind calling is the most limiting factor. If I have a good load shooting at or below 1/2 MOA and suddenly a group opens up to 2 MOA then I know that I made a bad wind call/adjustment.

I once performed a blind bag test with 20 rounds each of two types of ammo. One where each load had been carefully weighed to within 0.05 gr. The other had loads that were thrown with my Lee Perfect Powder Measure. These were shot at 200 yds, the longest available at my local range at the time. After shooting, the groups were bracketed and both vertical and horizontal dispersion were measured and SD computed. There was no statistical difference between the two groups. The load used was a known node for my rifle. In hind sight, it would have been interesting to have weighed the thrown charges and recorded the weights. Now that I have a longer range locally, I may re-shoot this test for comparison.

Again, as long as you are satisfied loading to these tolerances and you feel that it makes you a better shooter then by all means do so.

 

[kvd]

Personally, I think you are over-thinking it. It seems on here that guys are trying to weigh loads down to the nearest kernel of powder and now seating to the nearest ,0005". If you are shooting long range, say 600 yards or more, the wind will cause a lot more error than the few more or less kernels of powder or the .003" variation in length. Are your wind reading skills such that you are dead on over 90% of the time? I am not trying to tell you to change your methods if they work for you. I weigh loads to the nearest 0.1 gr and my length may vary by 0.005". I am in a node for both so with that variance the rounds will shoot within 0.5 moa. I prefer to spend my limited time shooting rather than in the reloading room.
If you are in the pursuit of perfect ammo and enjoy the quest that is ok. I can understand trying to eliminate as many variables as possible. Just remember to dedicate some time to leaning to read the wind. By the way, you can learn a lot shooting long range on a rainy day.

Fwiw

To each their own. But when shooting long range. I like to know the only variable is the condition. So that when I adjust my shot, I'm adjusting for the condition. Not for fliers and the condition. I try to be as thorough as I can be in the loading room. I just finished loading 140 rounds for the ridgway championship match this weekend. All measured to .02 grains. All lengths set to within .0005 tolerance. That's just my discipline.

What can I say. It is a multifaceted sport which is what makes it both interesting and challenging

The number #1 scenario is superior for several reasons:

1. Can be used with the seating force measurement press.
   
2. It has a positive stop. No matter how hard you press its going to stop at the same place each time.
   
3. Because of the above two you get unparalleled consistency if in conjunction with neck turning and annealing every time.
   
4. You can use it with a harbor press, which means you can load your rounds long and then play with seating depth at the range, without having to make extra trips.

They do. I have a standard Wilson 7 RSAUM seating seating die with a micrometer. I didn't need to go the custom route.

Kindest regards,

Joe

I agree with the points mention in your post. I know that the press mounted seating dies can be used with great success by those who are skilled at handloading but I think for a novice such as myself, the Wilson type seating dies are more foolproof. I'm beginning to suspect that what gets blamed on the wind, may in many cases be inconsistencies in seating depth, neck grip and powder charge. There is simply no way to measure actual bullet distance to lands for each individual round. One must trust their measurements and iron out as much variance as possible before tackling the other facets of long range precision shooting. What good is reading the wind if every round downrange is different - which they will inevitably be anyway to a small degree. Thank goodness for forgiving nodes!

Ken

 

[mikeeg02]

Like I said, not trying to change the way you do things if they work for you. If doing the extra work gives you the confidence to shoot better then it is worth it. I don't feel that I am more prone to fliers with my method than you are with yours. If you miss or make a bad shot do you KNOW that it was a bad wind call, miss due to breakdown in form, or a flier? Lets say that with your methods your are shooting 1/8 MOA groups and with my methods i am shooting 1/2 MOA groups. If we are shooting in the same match, the winner between the two of us will be the one who makes the best wind calls/adjustments.

I am not trying to get anyone to change what they do. I am just throwing this out there for the guys who read these threads who can't afford a scale that will weigh to 0.01 gr. I don't want them to think that since they can't afford all the equipment to load to this precision that they can't be competitive. If you are truly on a node then loading to the nearest 0.1 gr with minor variations in seating depth will not cause fliers. For most shooters, wind calling is the most limiting factor. If I have a good load shooting at or below 1/2 MOA and suddenly a group opens up to 2 MOA then I know that I made a bad wind call/adjustment.

I once performed a blind bag test with 20 rounds each of two types of ammo. One where each load had been carefully weighed to within 0.05 gr. The other had loads that were thrown with my Lee Perfect Powder Measure. These were shot at 200 yds, the longest available at my local range at the time. After shooting, the groups were bracketed and both vertical and horizontal dispersion were measured and SD computed. There was no statistical difference between the two groups. The load used was a known node for my rifle. In hind sight, it would have been interesting to have weighed the thrown charges and recorded the weights. Now that I have a longer range locally, I may re-shoot this test for comparison.

Again, as long as you are satisfied loading to these tolerances and you feel that it makes you a better shooter then by all means do so.

I'd be interested in seeing your results of weighed charges after using just the Lee. I know when I use my RCBS powder dispenser to pre-charge loads to about 32 grains before the auto trickler finishes it up, the charge can vary up to a grain of powder (with varget) though usually its not quite that far. Maybe the Lee does a better job. I want to pick up another one or two so I can leave separate powders in them without emptying and such, maybe I'll try a lee.

 

[kvd]

I'd be interested in seeing your results of weighed charges after using just the Lee. I know when I use my RCBS powder dispenser to pre-charge loads to about 32 grains before the auto trickler finishes it up, the charge can vary up to a grain of powder (with varget) though usually its not quite that far. Maybe the Lee does a better job. I want to pick up another one or two so I can leave separate powders in them without emptying and such, maybe I'll try a lee.

The Lee Perfect Powder Measure can vary quite a bit from one charge to the next. I've seen almost a grain difference with Hodgdon 4831sc. Finer grain powders like Accurate LT-32 and Vihtavuori N133 work better but can still be off by as much as 1/2 grain. Best to use these dispensers to throw a charge close to where you want to be and add or subtract using a good scale.

Ken

 

[T-shooter]

With any plastic, make sure you don't have a static problem. I sprayed my Lee inside with anti static spray when it was new. Also, some powders if not all will tend to stick or clump. After throwing the handle, tap the side a couple times to dislodge any powder. If not, if a few kernels stick, you get a light load and the next time they may all drop out and make a heavier load. I don't use mine much except for pistol loads anymore but it usually stays within about 1/10 grain with Bullseye or Longshot powder.