Turning necks for standard FL dies???

[Canuckenstein]

Canuckenstein, Yes you can certainly get where you want to go without gages or inspection equipment. It really comes down to each of us to decide on how much we invest in tools that may or may not get used for general purposes at home, so I don’t blame you for not wanting to get gage pins if they will collect dust. (See if any of your friends already have a set they can loan you?)

After the responses, I think you can get the main points about FL die dimensions.

Most FL size dies overwork brass and may induce runout when the expander ball comes back through. The hybrid solution where the die diameter is honed and minimized usually produces the longest case life and lowest runout. There are also benefits from exploring the alternative methods for expansion using mandrels or ball sets that come in fine increments.

You would probably be better off with a bushing die if you don’t mind the investment. Neck turning also starts with brass at the correct diameter for a pilot mandrel in order to produce good results, so even there you would need to control the sizing. This is another argument for sizing controls with mandrels.

Neck turning brass may help brass runout in instances where the brass is of low quality to begin with. The relationship of the FL die dimensions and the chamber of sporter rifles can sometimes set up situations where this combination further works the brass over the long term, but only testing can answer if turning is any benefit in a sporter context. My guess is that outcome would be based on your brass and how many different batches and brands of brass you are running.

Many of us have been at this game for a lifetime and since a young age. As a result, we have many overlapping tools and methods to manage brass and neck tension. We often have to use our imagination to picture starting out late in life or from a standing start without the benefit of all the collected tools and mentoring.

My last guess is you will end up with all three capabilities on your bench, honed FL dies with more than one expander, a bushing die with a span of bushings, as well as neck turning equipment to satisfy your curiosity. But I will also guess you have more to gain from the first two and buying better brass so you can skip neck turning.

All my brass is either Norma, Lapua or GECO.
I just posted another reply about the headaches from RCBS dies. However my RCBS dies for 8mm Mauser are spot on. But out of the 4 sets I own 3 consistently give excess run out. That’s a 75% Failure rate in my eyes. I have even tried the offending dies in the presses of my friends. One was a COAX the other was a Lee Classic cast and a Redding big boss. All gave excess run out. Not to come across as a douche but I’ve also been involved with guns since I was small. However I inherited nothing from my step grandfather except knowledge and the ability to shoot better than most.

All his dies were L E Wilson or Redding.
Any how I gotta tend to some .308 that’s calling name.

Regards

Jon

 

[Canuckenstein]

Hi Uncle Ed Is the die in picture a Redding type S die, I like the idea of keeping the expander high up in the die to help keep runout at min could you give details of expander parts used along with how expander was modified as thinking of doing same for my Redding S Die for my FTR .308 palma Brass Loads, Thanks.

I would do it to my hornady dies if I could. My .308 brass is perfect coming out of my Forster FL. They make great product for a reasonable price. That’s why I talked the wife into bringing them into our store to be sold.

With the AR ban in Canada I see precision shooting and loading taking off. Better to be ahead of the curve.

 

[RegionRat]

Don’t forget to take a look at how Whidden does the standard FL size dies when combined with a set of expander balls. He doesn’t offer them in all calibers, but he does focus on the ones that are popular for competition and such.

 

[Uncle Ed]

Hi Uncle Ed Is the die in picture a Redding type S die, I like the idea of keeping the expander high up in the die to help keep runout at min could you give details of expander parts used along with how expander was modified as thinking of doing same for my Redding S Die for my FTR .308 palma Brass Loads, Thanks.

The die pictured is a .243 Redding full length non-bushing die and not a type S die.

I modified the Forster expander by cutting down the spindle until the expander was at the approximate correct height inside the die. I then added a rubber o-ring under the expander lock ring to allow the expander to float.

You could also just remove the dies expander, size the case, and then use an expander die to expand the necks.

 

[243winxb]

Neck turn brass, size in std die. No expander. Measure OD of neck. Seat bullet. Measure OD of neck. This is your neck tension.

To much NT. Turn off more brass or hone out die .

 

[Kracken McGraw]

Hi Uncle Ed Is the die in picture a Redding type S die, I like the idea of keeping the expander high up in the die to help keep runout at min could you give details of expander parts used along with how expander was modified as thinking of doing same for my Redding S Die for my FTR .308 palma Brass Loads, Thanks.

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1010985619
This is the Forster part you were interested in.
If you take the Redding stem out, put some heat to it first to help break loose the thread loc.

 

[paulT]

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1010985619
This is the Forster part you were interested in.
If you take the Redding stem out, put some heat to it first to help break loose the thread loc.

Thanks for info & Link.

 

[Kracken McGraw]

Thanks for info & Link.

Paul, there’s no guarantee that the Forster stem is the same size as the Redding. Seems like the 308 Redding is where the stem diameter got bigger and I had to order a smaller caliber top plug from a Redding to make it work on the .308.

 

[ronemus]

In Canada cheapest I could find was 130 Canadian Pesos for a .200 to .500. I would only be doing 2 calibers 8mm Mauser and .303 Brit. I have slowly replaced all my other dies with Forster sets.

Try Amazon - they have most gage pins for $1 to $3 (US); if you buy several at once the shipping charge won't be too much. I find it's useful to have pins at caliber diameter and one 0.002" over to allow me to adjust Hornady seating depth cases to my liking (neck turned and sized with my die). If I'm measuring bore diameter I get 6-10 pins bracketing SAAMI nominal bore diameter.

 

[Uncle Ed]

You could also just remove the dies expander, size the case, and then use an expander die to expand the necks.

You can take any brand full-length die and remove the expander, then size the case and it will be as concentric as it ever will be. Meaning if the "average" dies expander is removed it will have no effect on neck runout. I like the Forster dies because you are only sizing the case once and there is no improvement if I use an expander die and sizing the case twice.

The main cause of neck runout is if the expander is locked down off-center. And the Forster high mounted "FLOATING" expander enters the case neck when it is held and centered in the neck of the die.

Below the Redding expander on the left sits lower and is not self centering and has far more surface area increasing drag inside the neck. And by just adding the Forster expander assembly it greatly reduces the drag and neck runout. And if you do not want to modify your dies then just use an expander die to reduce neck runout.

Expander Mandrels and Neck Tension​

https://www.accurateshooter.com/technical-articles/reloading/expander-mandrels-and-neck-tension/



The Lyman type "M" expander dies will also help straight inline seating reducing neck runout. If you bump the case mouth onto the larger second step the bullets will be started straight into the case neck with just your fingers. After brass spring back the case mouth is only .001 larger than bullet diameter.

 

[Canuckenstein]

You can take any brand full-length die and remove the expander, then size the case and it will be as concentric as it ever will be. Meaning if the "average" dies expander is removed it will have no effect on neck runout. I like the Forster dies because you are only sizing the case once and there is no improvement if I use an expander die and sizing the case twice.

The main cause of neck runout is if the expander is locked down off-center. And the Forster high mounted "FLOATING" expander enters the case neck when it is held and centered in the neck of the die.

Below the Redding expander on the left sits lower and is not self centering and has far more surface area increasing drag inside the neck. And by just adding the Forster expander assembly it greatly reduces the drag and neck runout. And if you do not want to modify your dies then just use an expander die to reduce neck runout.

Expander Mandrels and Neck Tension​

https://www.accurateshooter.com/technical-articles/reloading/expander-mandrels-and-neck-tension/

View attachment 1209846

The Lyman type "M" expander dies will also help straight inline seating reducing neck runout. If you bump the case mouth onto the larger second step the bullets will be started straight into the case neck with just your fingers. After brass spring back the case mouth is only .001 larger than bullet diameter.

I like the Lyman expander would be good for flat bottomed varmint bullets. Everybody here sure make it easy to spend my money.

 

[Canuckenstein]

Try Amazon - they have most gage pins for $1 to $3 (US); if you buy several at once the shipping charge won't be too much. I find it's useful to have pins at caliber diameter and one 0.002" over to allow me to adjust Hornady seating depth cases to my liking (neck turned and sized with my die). If I'm measuring bore diameter I get 6-10 pins bracketing SAAMI nominal bore diameter.

I looked at KBC it was cheaper than amazon at least in Canada. $5.97 for class z indivdual +/- a tenth which you specify. Amazon.ca was $10 per pin gage. I also saw a 2oz tin of imperial sizing wax for $64.85 yesterday.Hence why I call it Scamazon.

 

[skeeljc]

Turn a case neck enough to clean up the OD. Load and fire the case. Size the case and measure the neck OD. Seat a bullet and then measure the neck OD. The difference in the OD measurements is a good indicator of the neck tension. Then you can further reduce the neck thickness to reduce the neck tension.

Unless you use brass that has a thick neck wall you will probably reach zero neck tension quickly. Factory sizing dies are designed to work with all commercial brass. SAMI chambers are big enough to allow the bullet to release with the thickest brass. Standard sizing dies reduce the neck OD enough to provide some neck tension on the thinnest brass.

 

[searcher]

The simplest way to get the tension you want with factory die-sized bras is take bullet diameter (.224"-001" spring-back) = .223" which = zero tension. From there, reduce the number by .001" for each .001" of tension wanted. So - if you want .002" tension, run a .221" mandrel into your sized brass. To make your brass last longer and spare you the step with the mandrel - best to just buy a bushing die.

 

[skeeljc]

The simplest way to get the tension you want with factory die-sized bras is take bullet diameter (.224"-001" spring-back) = .223" which = zero tension. From there, reduce the number by .001" for each .001" of tension wanted. So - if you want .002" tension, run a .221" mandrel into your sized brass. To make your brass last longer and spare you the step with the mandrel - best to just buy a bushing die.

I believe the spring back goes the other way. If you want to end up with a .222 neck ID you will need to expand the neck with a .223 diameter pin.

 

[searcher]

I believe the spring back goes the other way

Yes. Sometimes I type faster than I think. In my example, I'd use a .225" mandrel to return to .224" after spring back - to arrive at zero tension - then adjust downward to attain tension as mentioned.

 

[INTJ]

I generally don't turn necks unless I have a tight-necked chamber. I do sort my brass by neck wall thickness and cull out cases with more than .001" or .0015" variance.

That said, turning for a no turn chamber is fine as long as the final chamber to neck clearance is not much more than .005". Sometimes a light cleanup will still keep the clearance within .005" and make several more cases useable.

I did have to turn the cases for my 33-28 Nosler. When necking up from .284 to .338, some of the shoulder becomes part of the neck and it was .006" thicker there, so I turned that off to avoid donuts.

I always use an expander, even for my LR BR rifles. When you use only a bushing you put all of the case irregularities to the inside of the neck against the bullet. An expanded pushes those irregularities to the outside. This is true even with carefully turned cases.

The Forster dies with their raised expanders work very well as to Redding dies with the floating expander.

I have not had concentricity issues in many years. I don't even check it anymore. I used to obsess over concentricity. I am not sure how critical it really is, but then again loading the way that I do minimizes those errors.

I also have never had much concern with "over working" case necks. In my experience primer pockets get loose before anything else fails.

 

[Canuckenstein]

I generally don't turn necks unless I have a tight-necked chamber. I do sort my brass by neck wall thickness and cull out cases with more than .001" or .0015" variance.

That said, turning for a no turn chamber is fine as long as the final chamber to neck clearance is not much more than .005". Sometimes a light cleanup will still keep the clearance within .005" and make several more cases useable.

I did have to turn the cases for my 33-28 Nosler. When necking up from .284 to .338, some of the shoulder becomes part of the neck and it was .006" thicker there, so I turned that off to avoid donuts.

I always use an expander, even for my LR BR rifles. When you use only a bushing you put all of the case irregularities to the inside of the neck against the bullet. An expanded pushes those irregularities to the outside. This is true even with carefully turned cases.

The Forster dies with their raised expanders work very well as to Redding dies with the floating expander.

I have not had concentricity issues in many years. I don't even check it anymore. I used to obsess over concentricity. I am not sure how critical it really is, but then again loading the way that I do minimizes those errors.

I also have never had much concern with "over working" case necks. In my experience primer pockets get loose before anything else fails.

Since I have replaced the majority of my dies for my” target rifles” I have relaxed a bit about concentricity. Although I had a meat down when I found my RCBS “Competition Dies” were imparting .008-.010 in run out to my 7mm RM. Those dies were sold and replaced with Forster.

 

[skeeljc]

Since I have replaced the majority of my dies for my” target rifles” I have relaxed a bit about concentricity. Although I had a meat down when I found my RCBS “Competition Dies” were imparting .008-.010 in run out to my 7mm RM. Those dies were sold and replaced with Forster.

If you want to take a step better sell the Forster dies and buy Redding.

 

[Kracken McGraw]

If you want to take a step better sell the Forster dies and buy Redding.

Since you mentioned this and I haven’t invested in micrometer type seating dies yet , are the Redding’s better than the Forster seater’s also?