tuning my new howa 204 - advice needed

[Biomechanic]

Hi
I just brought a howa 1500, 24 inch stainless barrel, 204.
Im running 40g hornady, winchester primers and ADI AR2206H power, remmington brass.

I have started to run in the barrel, and now would like some advice of how the get the best,fastest or most productive way to tune my loads. I have lots of this power and thousouths of the 40g, 204 hornady projeciles which I dont really want to change.

I have worked out the max length of the bullet which is a bit of a concern at 2.412 inch. this is much longer than the max length of the bullet for 204. @ 2.325 inch

Now I usually start loading from about 5/1000ths of the lands and work back,...... but to get the bullets to fit in the magazine they have to be 90/1000ths of the lands!

does anyone else have this problem or is this not a drama.?? Ive never had this before as all my brothers sako guns 223,204,308 and trg 42 win mag have always been able to start loading touching the lands.

Should I just start tuning from 90/1000th off the lands if so
what format should I do.? eg keep backing off with conservative load unti somethings suits, then load up or down to fine tune? OR keep at 90/1000th of lands and just adjust load until good.

Your advice would be greatly appreciated. It seems the more I shoot the less I know.

remember I have heaps of power and projectiles so dont really want to change these if I can help it.

 

[zedsdead]

A lot of 204s seem to like a little jump, mine included. This seems to be even more evident with Hornady bullets.

Jason

 

[FURMAN]

My Savage shoots in the .3-.4 with 39sbks @ 2.285 over 25.1 RL10X. My Cooper seems to like the same load @ around the same length but I do not have it pinned down yet. My Savage hated the Vmax so I haven't tried them in the Cooper. My chamber length is somewhere around the same as yours.

 

[Biomechanic]

have you tried seating bullet right up at the lands?

 

[Silverfox]

Biomechanic--I didn't do much load testing in my Savage 12VLP with the 40 gr. Hornady V-Max bullets, but I do use the 40 gr. Nosler BTs in my rifle. I use 27.6 gr. of H4895,supposed to be the same as your ADI AR2206H powder) and get great accuracy and explosive results on prairie dogs here in North Dakota.

When I was testing the 40 gr. Hornady bullets, my overall cartridge length was right around 2.390' so my reloads would fit in the magzine of my rifle. I was using WW brass and Remington 7½ primers. Most of my shooting is done with the 39 gr. Sierra BlitzKings or the 40 gr. Nosler BTs now and the ogive of those bullets is right around .080' off the lands. They all shoot just great with that big jump. I haven't tried seating bullets into the lands or even real close because my groups with my current reloading length work just great. I couldn't reach the lands with the bullets I use and have the bullet a comfortable depth into the necks anyway.

I'm going to have a new super match grade 1 in 11' twist 3-groove Pac-Nor barrel chambered and installed in my Savage when the factory barrel quits shooting accurately. The reamer for the chamber on the new barrel will have a .230' no-turn neck and zero freebore, so when I have that barrel installed, I'll be able to test the theory that the .204 Ruger likes a bit of jump a little better.

 

[Biomechanic]

An up date on my howa loading.

I am not having to much success with finding a good load. I currently get 1 inch groups with hornady v max, 26g adi 2206h power and AOL of 2.285. there coming out at 3450 with about 30 feet per/sec stand. dev.

I first started with the bullet as long as possible so that it would still fit the mag. then loaded a av powder load and gradually worked the bullet length out till I found something promising. This was 2.285. then changed the load either side to fine tune and found the best was 26g.

This was still 1 inch group which Im not happy with considering its a free floating heavy 24 inch barrel which has been glass bedded.

I tested 400 yards today to see if the bullet was still stablizing but only got 5-6 inch groups. There was no wind, dead calm, Im using a good high powered scope and I think I shoot reasonably well for a shooter as my other guns get alot better groups.

i have 3000 vmax bullets in stock and a heap of the same power.

Should I forget about hornady v max and the powder and try something else??

what first,? change power or projectile first.

Im a bit lost to what to do now.?

I have tried bench mark 2 power in a few loads but nothing great happened.

HELP please, getting a little frustrated. should I be more patient?

I just tuned my mates tikka T3 and found that the first length and 2nd load I tested shot almost hole on hole at 100 yards. How could it be so so easy.

 

[BradY]

mate most factory 204's have a 1:12 twist and its right on the border line of stabilising those bullets. Alot of guys who cant get the 40gr vmax or 40gr nosler BT to group well turn to the 39gr sierra blitzking and thier problems go immediately.

I had a howa 22-250 and they make the throats fairly long to ease and pressure problems with factory loaded ammo.

What i would be doing...

1. Go and try 39gr sierra blizkings
2. If you are nowhere near your lands then seat them out as long as you can so they fit in the magazine. Make sure you still have plenty of bullet in the case neck though.
3. 2206H is the standard powder most people try, but give reloader 10x and winchester 748 a go as that sometimes works out well and you will get better velocity.
4. Try some different primers- maybe the rem 7 1/2's as they seem to be fairly consistent for hunting. Otherwise look at CCI benchrest small rifle primers as i reckon they are the ducks nuts in primers available in australia.
5. Make sure your rifle is really clean.
6. Prep your cases- uniform the primer pockets, deburr the flash holes, trim to length and if you want to get pedantic weight sort your cases.

If your gun doesnt run better after that, then i would suggest you may need a couple of threads cut off the end of the barrel and have a 204 ruger reamer run into it again and make a shorter throat. Most 204's seem to work better with some jump though so im sure your gun is fine.

What solvents/cleaning methods do you use?

Also look at getting a timney trigger installed as the factory howa triggers are pretty average. You can also get the crown checked as well but the flash marks and carbon lines on the muzzle should tell you if its not up to scratch as they should be identical all the way round.

If you can get an inch at 100 then 4-5 inches at 300 is a little poor but like i said before the 1:12 twist isnt quite always able to stabilise the 40gr ballistic tips, especially so since your only shooting them at 3450fps or so. I would like to think that having a good varmint cal like the 204, it was going at least 3600fps with the heavier bullets.

 

[Biomechanic]

thanks for the detailed reply.

I will do all those things you suggested.

when I try the sierra's do I do a full ramp up in AOL,starting as you suggested), keeping the same load and just ramp down in length. find something good then change the power to fine tune?

Should i try the 32 grain hornadys as well or just go for the sierras?

Cleaning solvent I am using
'gunslick' foaming and bore cleaner.
now going to use 'Tetra Gun' copper solvent

although and didnt use a muzzle brake in testing and have one on now. There was no change in grouping performance. should I take it off or just test with on.

thanks for help as there is no one really around my area that knows at this level what to do.

 

[BradY]

Muzzlebreak on a 204 is a waste of time mate and wont do anything but make it louder. There is not enough recoil to really try and dampen which is what a muzzlebreak does. If someone sold you a muzzlebreak to make a gun more accurate then they got you a good one. Wont do a thing to accuracy.

Get ahold of the tetra rifle cleaning dvd, the tetra solvent and some action blaster to give it a real good cleanout. Make sure you get a bore guide too, so you dont damage the throat of your rifle.

Dont bother with the 32gr bullets, they are a bit light and with the better BC of of the 39gr bullets you will buck the wind better and have more hitting power.

For length put it this way, its recommended that you have the same amout of bullet seated in the neck as the bullet is in diameter. If you can get 0.200' into the neck then that should be fine. Too little bullet seated in the neck and you can bump the bullet around when loading and quite possibly knock it off centre.

I take it your weighing each powder charge? Dont trust a powder thrower time after time as they just arent accurate enough. Take your time and load 20 cases carefully, makeing sure they are the same OAL.

What dies are you using? If you dont already, try neck sizing- the redding type S necking dies are great but if you cant get anything else, the lee collet die is a good enough substitute for hunting.

Again, worst case scenario, you will have to get your rifle checked over by a gunsmith. Shooting an inch group is well within the limit that howa would consider accurate so your not going to get any joy by taking it back and saying its not working.

 

[Biomechanic]

thanks

the muzzle brake was straight off my sako trg 42 to see what it was like.

my little daughter shoots the 22 and thought it would dampen the recoil for her. It actually stops all recoil all together which was pretty cool, but as you said alot lot louder. I shoot it without muffs on yesterday and made my ears ring.!!! I take it off as you suggested

I have the dvd, the lee collet die, runout mech., and electronic powder dispenser, RCBS case trimmer,

never tried to case sort might do that as well.

the 32 g work good in my brothers sako 204 but the 4o's were equal so settle on them for the obvious reasons.

cheers

 

[BradY]

Yep those remington cases may well be the go then. Uniform primer pockets, deburr the flash holes etc.

I think you will see a bit better performance out of the 39gr BK's than the 40gr bullets. Like I said too, other primers and powder will shoot differently too. I had a 22 hornet that was shocking with ADI powders but W296 made it deadly. My 20 practical,20-223) has reloader 10x and 2206H to try out. From all suggestions, the 10x is going to be the way to go. Its very popular in 20 cal rifles.

 

[fdshuster]

biomechanic: At least some of your accuracy problems may be the result of carbon buildup. My 204, and several others I looked at with my 'Hawkeye' were producing very good groups, and all of a sudden turned to crap. Scoped the bores and found extreme carbon buildup. Went to work with JB returning them to 'as new', and group sizes immediately shrunk: 'til it built-up again. Gotta keep after it.

 

[Biomechanic]

thanks for the thought.

I think it is my runout now!!! some were 7/1000th absolutely crap. I think it is my lee die.

I have been rolling them on the rcbs runout machine from the case neck prior to resizing. then after, then after seating bullet. ONLY after seating the bullet is the runout shit. the best is 2/1000th and most are 5-7 1000th.

I have redding comp dies for the sako trg 42 and everyone is 1/1000th runout, some zero.!!!

I see aboout getting redding for the 204. Would I need comp quality or just type S?


by the way what is Jb cleaner.?? sorry my lack of knownledge.

Im am putting into place all that has been said over the last few days and thank everyone for their input. hopefully soon my groups will tighten up.

 

[fdshuster]

Peter: I also use the RCBS runout gauge,, and the Sinclair), and loaded round runout has been driving me nuts for many years now. I believe most of it is related to the quality,, or lack thereof) an individual piece of brass. Otherwise, why would 2 of 20 have .005' runout, and the rest less than .002'? All loaded with the same dies, components, etc. I can even get unacceptable runout, although rarely) with the superior Lapua brass. The 'big green' has been my worst, so I avoid using it. Prefer Winchester if I'm using 'cheap' brass. When I get a round with runout of around .002'/.003', I mark the bullet nose & base with a black magic marker and use it for first round foulers, basic scope adjustment, and 100 yd. max. Some brass will straighten out after 2 or 3 firings. I've never been able to remove carbon build-up with any liquid solvent: others have, I know, but as verified with my 'Hawkeye' I cannot get it to work: carbon before and after cleaning. JB is an old time product closely related to jewelers rouge. A very light paste that when used with a bronze brush has a good scrapping action to remove the carbon. Iosso does much the same thing, and if I did not have JB would not hesitate to use Iosso. The JB I use is the blue label, original formula. They also make a red label which is more for polishing. Backing up: don't feel too bad about runout. I've checked various factory ammo and found as much as .012' to .015'. Some factory ammo is not as perfect as thought to be.

 

[Biomechanic]

update on Howa,

I now think the 40g hornady are not stablizing as im getting 12 inch groups at 300 yards and 4 inch groups with 32 g hornady. Not that I like the smaller bullet.

My gun is still very inconsistent, hole on hole for one 32 g load then sprays out to a inch at 100 yards.

Everything is tight, action to glass bedding, picatinny rail mounts and scope mounts.

Im waiting for some sierras 39g to try.

heres the deal. my second problem with case sticking is returning

even though I have shortened my csaes by 20/1000th down to 1.830 inch, well below the 1.850 standard, im still getting cases stuck in the barrel. very very very ignoring. so its not the case length I think that is making the cases stick. its the ejector or ........I think the gun sales guy who sold me the gun thinks it is too much 'head space' .???

the bolt/ejector isnt being forced over the end of the case. ??Would this explain my inaccurracy problems??

what the hell is 'head spacing' I can visualise it but as you can see, dont really know.

Anyway I said to the my sales guy at the shop I brought it from that the case is sticking 50% of the time and I have had enough so its going back to the Howa dealer for him to have a look at with some of my brass. He agreed.

any thoughts?