Joe, here's a pic of one on a barrel. It shows the tuner but there are features incorporated that a pic doesn't really show. I use tungsten powder inside the tuner to dampen harmonics better than just a solid mass of steel or aluminum. Also, the way it's mounted gives excellent support and doesn't require tools to adjust.
Tuners - what you're missing
- Thread starter dcali
- Start date
Here's a pic of the insides, as a few come out of the Haas.
Yes, but as you've found with seating depth, you're close.
1-2 marks on my tuner is typical from a 100 to a 1000 yard tuner setting. I shoot short range but do some testing at both. Thing is, tuners can't work at one distance and not the other. They do work well for long range but the wind is such a big variable as is seeing your bullet holes. With good notes, you can set them based on conditions, mostly temps, but sights are best for sure. There isn't a down side though.
Good to know thanks - because I have to shoot all distance 300 - 1000 I'm always looking for the best compromise. One day I might be confident enough to have have a tuner setting for each distance..but I'm not there yet.
It's hard to do that because temps are always changing and the wind blowing. The perfect setting today, at any distance may or may not be just right tomorrow. Really no different than without a tuner in that regard though. If anything, it'll stay in tune better with a tuner vs without. Moving a tuner is no different than changing the load for different conditions and/or distance.
Interesting - I figured that would be the panacea for a tuner in F-class.
Of course there is no panacea for all the variables involved. As we should all know, good bullet, barrels and wind reading are requisite of accuracy shooting, but tune is a huge factor. Good tune makes bullets and barrels look great and shooters look invincible. Used to its potential, tuners do completely away with being out of tune, right at the bench.
The barrel has to be threaded, Joe. No difference so long as the barrel is large enough to begin with. Threads are .875-32
Ned Ludd
Silver $$ Contributor
"Panacea" is probably not the best description. I would call it more of a "set it and forget it" approach for F-Class. We shoot long strings of fire at intervals several hours apart on any given day or weekend match, or even over several days at a big match. Pure and absolute precision of a load is rarely the limiting source of error; the wind conditions are. Further, due to time constraints, loading at the match for some perceived condition change is simply not an option. Although some competitors bring their reloading gear to the hotel room for bigger matches when they travel. However, many do not, and therefore their ammunition has to be tuned and loaded prior to leaving home. Likewise, most F-Class shooters are not fiddling with the tuner settings during match or in between strings once they have found and set it to the middle of the tune window. I view it as more an issue of different disciplines, having different limiting sources of error, and therefore requiring different approaches.
Yeah. I know of plenty that have short to mid range rifles and long range rifles. Having a rifle shoot short through to long range is all about compromises. Playing with a tuner at 900 I can get a reduction in vertical relative to the tuner setting used to dial in 300. Sure I'm talking .5moa to .3moa which isnt the limiting factor but definitely food for thought. I haven't played with it enough to land somewhere definitive. My take away at this point in time is that 900 will have a tuner setting that will perform best over a variety of temps etc relative to a setting for 300 that does the same. Slightly different to dialing in the most precise setting that say short range br might do.
IMO weights on the end of a barrel that aren't moved are more acting as dampeners than tuners.
Gentlemen, A question please
I have always been intrigued by barrel tuners and certainly use them on rimfire rifles.
But, I was wondering about using them on a centerfire rifle with a suppressor. This is a rather complex issue I think. Not sure how the suppressor is considered in terms of the theory of tube length vs barrel length and harmonics.
One could put a tuner on the end of the suppressor or possibly create an interface between the muzzle and suppressor attachment somehow and turn the suppressor itself inward or outward using it as a so called tuner.
Anyway, I would appreciate any and all thoughts on this matter since suppressors are becoming more and more popular.
Thank you
Dan
I have always been intrigued by barrel tuners and certainly use them on rimfire rifles.
But, I was wondering about using them on a centerfire rifle with a suppressor. This is a rather complex issue I think. Not sure how the suppressor is considered in terms of the theory of tube length vs barrel length and harmonics.
One could put a tuner on the end of the suppressor or possibly create an interface between the muzzle and suppressor attachment somehow and turn the suppressor itself inward or outward using it as a so called tuner.
Anyway, I would appreciate any and all thoughts on this matter since suppressors are becoming more and more popular.
Thank you
Dan
No reason it couldn't be done but a custom tuner/suppressor would probably have to be made. Look at the tuner brakes that harrells precision makes. Probably something similarly designed would work.
Mulligan
Silver $$ Contributor
If a tuner is designed to be adjusted, based on environmental conditions the time of the match, why are these being used “set it and forget it”?
Are you saying, those that have them don’t believe they work or don’t know how to use them? Or something else?
CW
I move mine almost every match if you don't you may be leaving something on the table.
Mulligan
Silver $$ Contributor
Thank you, I thought that was the whole point of the tool to begin with. I appreciate your response.
CW
When wind conditions are really bad and you can't shoot concrete groups to test tune sometimes you're better off to leave things alone if they are shooting OK. The great thing about Mike's tuner I have found is usually there is a three-four mark window where the rifle will shoot regardless of tune related conditions (temp humidity etc) so even if your blind in the wind you know from previous experience with your rifle and tuner about where the best tune should be given today's weather. My tuner never moves outside of 3-6 regardless of conditions so that only leaves 4 choices. If you remember that and work methodically it's hard to get lost.
Dusty Stevens
Shiner
Just unscrew it. Its not like putting on a 1/2x28 flash hider theres not much change to a barrel putting a tuner on it with threads that big
Ned Ludd
Silver $$ Contributor
The tuner is a tool, like any other tool we might use. One could also argue that a seating die micrometer was meant to be turned; why do we set it only at one point while loading a given batch of ammunition? It's because that particular setting provides the specific seating depth we need. Likewise, when the tuner is set in the middle of the tune window for an F-Class rifle, as long as that setting does everything you need, there is no reason to turn it. It would be just more opportunity to make mistakes, IMO. There are a number of things we do during the loading process for F-Class where we aim for the middle of an "optimal window" so we don't have to tweak anything during a match.
In addition, you'd better be real sure that you know what changing the setting is actually going to do to your grouping before changing it in the middle of a string. Changing the tuner will noticeably cause groups to string out horizontally and vertically as you twirl it more. However, how the group shape changes seems to be more of a "general trend" in my hands, rather than something written in stone. I'd personally be very cautious about changing it during a match, which of course is not exactly the same thing as saying you can't or shouldn't change it. But some knowledge of how a different setting changes your groups gained during practice would be essential to changing the tuner setting appropriately.
Set and forget is just like shooting the same load all day, every day...Sometimes it works better than others. Conversely moving the tuner is just like adjusting the load to keep up with tune changes. I'm of the belief that tune changes are inevitable as powder burning is a chemical reaction and all chemical reactions are temperature dependent. If you have a load that stays in tune better than others, you'll simply need to move the tuner less often.
There are lots of ill conceived notions about tuners. I'll say this, as I've said it many times but it's still very true. The most common two mistakes with using a tuner are moving it too far and moving it too often. There are days when I never move the tuner and there are days I move it by a mark or two. Each mark is .001" of an inch. No doubt, enough to affect tune considerably.
Just as weighing each kernel of powder is important to methodically working up your best load, so are even fractions of a mark on the tuner...but being very methodical with either, is the key to success. Grabbing a tuner and twisting randomly is akin to randomly throwing powder charges and seating bullets a full turn of the seater top(or some other random amount). You can luck into something either way but I know no one that thinks either is good nor methodical.--Mike
There are lots of ill conceived notions about tuners. I'll say this, as I've said it many times but it's still very true. The most common two mistakes with using a tuner are moving it too far and moving it too often. There are days when I never move the tuner and there are days I move it by a mark or two. Each mark is .001" of an inch. No doubt, enough to affect tune considerably.
Just as weighing each kernel of powder is important to methodically working up your best load, so are even fractions of a mark on the tuner...but being very methodical with either, is the key to success. Grabbing a tuner and twisting randomly is akin to randomly throwing powder charges and seating bullets a full turn of the seater top(or some other random amount). You can luck into something either way but I know no one that thinks either is good nor methodical.--Mike
I've moved my PDT one half mark at a 1000yd match and saw the load shoot a better waterline immediately. With Mike's tuner it does not take much movement at all to adjust the group characteristics. This is with a 6.5/ 30" / 1.25" straight barrel.
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