Tuner results

[savageshooter86]

Finally tested my EC TUNER. At 500 yards I could see instantly the vertical being shrunk. This is promising. This load shoots good at 600 yards, now these results show it may shoot better by using new tuner setting. I never have adjusted tuner off of zero. But I believe next match I will.

 

[Keith Glasscock]

I would suggest shooting more rounds per setting at 500 - 2 shots gives you an idea at 100, but can fool you quite easily.

I've also done some more work to "map" my tuner. Find a good spot, then go further until you find another one. Annotate what the groups look like on either side of "tuned." if it is of any help, there are spots where my tuners, regardless of design, make sloped groups like #1 above. That seems to be as far out as mine gets.

 

[savageshooter86]

I would suggest shooting more rounds per setting at 500 - 2 shots gives you an idea at 100, but can fool you quite easily.

I've also done some more work to "map" my tuner. Find a good spot, then go further until you find another one. Annotate what the groups look like on either side of "tuned." if it is of any help, there are spots where my tuners, regardless of design, make sloped groups like #1 above. That seems to be as far out as mine gets.

Yes further testing will come during matches. The above tuner test was at 500 yards. So gave me a good idea. This load is probably about as good as I can get it.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

I would suggest shooting more rounds per setting at 500 - 2 shots gives you an idea at 100, but can fool you quite easily.

I've also done some more work to "map" my tuner. Find a good spot, then go further until you find another one. Annotate what the groups look like on either side of "tuned." if it is of any help, there are spots where my tuners, regardless of design, make sloped groups like #1 above. That seems to be as far out as mine gets.

Good advice! I can tell that you've done your homework. This is what I see too, but more tuner weight, biasing muzzle deflection more on the vertical plane, does typically show more vertical shot displacement and somewhat less horizontal. As you said though, more shots are needed, particularly at 500 yards, to help to eliminate conditions. Tuners work! I'm happy to see the discussion and amount of feedback from testing, begin to pick up. It won't be long until the vast majority of shooters utilize a tuner, in one shape or form, or another.

I'll be posting some test results soon. I've done literally hundreds, but a fresh look is worth it while interest is high. I encourage others to post their tests and results, as I firmly believe that there is much interest in this subject as long as it stays on point and doesn't get too far into scientific la la land that only serves to confuse most shooters, leading to lost interest. Real world tests like this one tell most people all we need to know.
Keep up the good work!

 

[Keith Glasscock]

Hi Mike,

Good to hear from you. Yes, indeed, tuners work. I've only done basic testing with your tuner, but found that its mass combined with the long barrels I run (32") seem to have a very interesting pattern. I'm getting great groups at even numbers and various diagonal groups at odd numbers. I haven't taken the time to do any smaller increment testing as the barrel I have it on is being saved for big matches. My first attempt at a tune gave me such good results at 600 yards that I really am not sure that I need to mess with it a whole lot.

I'll update you as I start competing with that barrel. Amazingly, it shoots exactly the same load its predecessor did.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Hi Mike,

Good to hear from you. Yes, indeed, tuners work. I've only done basic testing with your tuner, but found that its mass combined with the long barrels I run (32") seem to have a very interesting pattern. I'm getting great groups at even numbers and various diagonal groups at odd numbers. I haven't taken the time to do any smaller increment testing as the barrel I have it on is being saved for big matches. My first attempt at a tune gave me such good results at 600 yards that I really am not sure that I need to mess with it a whole lot.

I'll update you as I start competing with that barrel. Amazingly, it shoots exactly the same load its predecessor did.

Hi Keith!
Diagonal, at slightly out of tune settings is pretty normal. The best way I know to describe it is to imagine a "tall star shaped oscillation at the muzzle. The extra mass of the tuner at the end of the barrel, along with gravity, forces muzzle movement to be vertically biased, but not to the point where it only moves vertically. IME, if you keep shooting, those diagonal groups will become big, ugly, round groups as the group continues to form with more shots.
I'm glad it's working for you, too, but small adjustments are the key to tuners. I've said it a bunch of times, but the single most common mistake using tuners is making too big of adjustments. You can get lucky and hit on spots that way, but it only complicates matters. Total range of needed tuner movement to tak a gun from in tune to completely out of tune with my tuners is typically 3-6 marks! That's only .003-.006" of tuner travel. How far depends on tuner weight, barrel stiffness and other factors..but that range has held true remarkably, across virtually every barrel contour and length. I try to be very careful in making this statement as it pertains to MY tuners, but small adjustments have held true with every make that I've tested. I could make a very long post but will end by saying that everyone should follow the instructions for adjusting, provided by the manufacturer of their tuner..but the same common mistake of over adjusting seems to apply to all of them. Just be very methodical, assume nothing..and let the target tell you what works and what doesn't. I can show anyone how to use my tuner in about 15 minutes if starting with a known good rifle and load.--Mike

 

[savageshooter86]

Does tuner setting effect ES? My ES got better as groups got better, with the new tuner settings. My best groups had lowest ES. Biggest group had largest

 

[Keith Glasscock]

No, not that I've seen. From a physics standpoint, it doesn't look likely either.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Does tuner setting effect ES? My ES got better as groups got better, with the new tuner settings. My best groups had lowest ES. Biggest group had largest

Pure speculation here, but if what you're saying is true, the only explanation that I can think of would be the possibility that the bullets are leaving the muzzle with less yaw than if without a tuner and good tune. Again..pure speculation on my part, but based on your results being true and relative to adding the tuner. Lots of other factors that are more likely, to be honest, though. I think Eric Stecker has done some testing that might be relevant, but I don't think his testing included tuners. Maybe he'll see this and respond. It's the only plausible explanation I can think of and is a stretch at that, but it does stand to reason that all bullets leaving the barrel with less yaw(is this the right term) could have some small effect on ES, especially at longer distance, I would think. How far from the chrony were you testing? Just curious.

 

[dmoran]

Andrew -
Since you have a LabRadar, which I assume you were using, it should be able to answer that question more accurately then only capturing/tracking velocity at one point from a conventional chronograph, because of the ability the LabRadar has to capture/track velocities at multiple distances.

With an accurate chronograph and setup, I believe could track the Mv difference just as your reporting.
More so yet, if the other distance velocities you had the LabRadar tracking, resultants patterned near the same as the Mv velocities (proof).

Your results are your results, so there for they are believable to the extent of how good of a setup was used, how accurate of a chronograph, and how consistent the effecting elements were controlled when they were captured/tracked - IME. The LabRadar eliminates many elements that other chronographs are subjected to.
You have the perfect chronograph to test such aspects, take full advantage of it and all its data potential. Then believe in the results, for they are true to you and your own tested scenario's !.!.!
Donovan

 

[savagedasher]

Pure speculation here, but if what you're saying is true, the only explanation that I can think of would be the possibility that the bullets are leaving the muzzle with less yaw than if without a tuner and good tune. Again..pure speculation on my part, but based on your results being true and relative to adding the tuner. Lots of other factors that are more likely, to be honest, though. I think Eric Stecker has done some testing that might be relevant, but I don't think his testing included tuners. Maybe he'll see this and respond. It's the only plausible explanation I can think of and is a stretch at that, but it does stand to reason that all bullets leaving the barrel with less yaw(is this the right term) could have some small effect on ES, especially at longer distance, I would think. How far from the chrony were you testing? Just curious.

As far as ES at the muzzle I don't think it would show. But I can tell you with a tuner you can see the difference in paper tare
When tuning a arrow using paper tare for tuning. The sooner and the smallest tare the arrow always shot with less vertical at distance. Larry

 

[dmoran]

As far as ES at the muzzle I don't think it would show. But I can tell you with a tuner you can see the difference in paper tare
When tuning a arrow using paper tare for tuning. The sooner and the smallest tare the arrow always shot with less vertical at distance. Larry

Andrew says his did, and I believe him.....

What is "paper tare" ?
I'm guessing you once again misspelled, and actually mean "tear", and referring to measured bullet hole size as to the amount of torn paper, which is a very common practice (particularly in benchrest).
Donovan

 

[Keith Glasscock]

Andrew says his did, and I believe him.....

... measured bullet hole size as to the amount of torn paper, which is a very common practice (particularly in benchrest).
Donovan

Donovan,

I have to say I've never heard of this before. Can you detail what is done and why? I'm curious if it would be of value to me in F-class.

 

[savageshooter86]

Andrew says his did, and I believe him.....

What is "paper tare" ?
I'm guessing you once again misspelled, and actually mean "tear", and referring to measured bullet hole size as to the amount of torn paper, which is a very common practice (particularly in benchrest).
Donovan

I will post results. That's why I asked. Sure enough the smallest groups had lowest ES. And I was using the Labradar.

 

[savageshooter86]

Tested again today. ES of 8 for this 4 shot group. Total shots fired today ES=10(11 shots). Other groups had about 1" vertical but in each group I got caught by the wind. But seems tuner setting 3-10 shoot tight vertical

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

I would recommend moving in closer, where there are fewer variables. while testing the tuner. There's nothing wrong with .258 moa, but getting too hung up about vertical, when tuners do more than just vertical, leaves you with too many assumptions unless the number of shots in testing is much more statistically significant...Move in closer and the tuner adjustments should be more trustworthy. The mere fact that you state a range of 3-10 leaves your results questionable IMHO. The window of adjustment is not typically that wide with any tuner. With the lighter weight and location of Eric's tuner design, I'd suspect more like 1-2 marks wide would be more expected IME. Nothing wrong with that. It is what it is. Figuring out for certain what that window is, is what's important..not that any number is better than another, per se...Although, I prefer the range that is in tune, relative to tuner movement be narrower. It leaves less room for error in tune..not more. IOW, it's best if you can definitively say, for example..that my gun is dead nuts in tune at setting 5-1/2, in a given condition, than a wide range of "maybe". I'm pretty sure that if your gun shoots as well as it looks like it may, moving closer will show smaller tuner movements and allow you to zero in on the real in tune number. You can then move the target out and verify, possibly just tweaking it slightly at distance.

This is just my experience with tuners. YMMV. I'm just trying to be of help. Good luck!--Mike Ezell

 

[savageshooter86]

This setting of 3 drives tacks so far at 500. But I was saying all the way out to 10 my vertical is still tight. 0 to 3, has more vertical Visibly on target. I haven't gone past 10. Still need to verify at a match at 600 yards but this load consistently shooting sub 1.5" at 500 gives me hope to do well. Now to just read the wind

only reason doing it at longer distance is prior to now I couldn't tell anything, because at 100 it all just bugholed. That's why haven't played with tuner since then. But at longer range I can see what the load is really doing

 

[Medium rare]

Here is my EC tuner testing from this morning.