hello, can you elaborate a bit more on what you mean by saying that you have been using the same load in a dozen barrels? I assume you have the same reamer and chamber in all of those barrels. If I understand what you are saying, i believe that you are using the same powder charge, the same seating depth and the only thing being adjusted is the tuner in each barrel?
Tuner load workup method
- Thread starter Cloudrepair
- Start date
hello, can you elaborate a bit more on what you mean by saying that you have been using the same load in a dozen barrels? I assume you have the same reamer and chamber in all of those barrels. If I understand what you are saying, i believe that you are using the same powder charge, the same seating depth and the only thing being adjusted is the tuner in each barrel?
Yes sir and that's exactly what I'm saying. I did forget to finish my post...That load has won lots of fake wood at local, state, and national levels.
There are exceptions but its a pretty safe bet that you can tune a proven load to shoot in most barrels by moving the tuner.
Had a friend come Down from Wisconsin Yesterday . The load he had didn’t shoot . He said he changed the tuner and the were in one hole .
Larry
Larry
USMCDOC
Silver $$ Contributor
Ok.. i guess i am just confused and still don't understand it all totally.. but that is ok.. i will
memilanuk
Gold $$ Contributor
With savagedasher, that's not uncommon. The stuff he posts makes my head hurt trying to follow.
I did a quick 2 shots test after installing an EC tuner on my Benchmark 32” F TR barrel.
Load is 200 Hybrid pushed at 2700 fps.
First target is with tuner at 0 (full in). Second 5 marks out, then further 4 marks, then 3, 2 then back in again to confirm the 17 mark spot.
I will shoot 5 shots groups to confirm the 16/17/18 marks spot and screwing out up to 2 full turns in 5 marks increments, evaluating tuner’s behaviour.
After finding my spots, I will tune again at different temperatures trying to correlate tuner’s dialing and degrees' changes
Load is 200 Hybrid pushed at 2700 fps.
First target is with tuner at 0 (full in). Second 5 marks out, then further 4 marks, then 3, 2 then back in again to confirm the 17 mark spot.
I will shoot 5 shots groups to confirm the 16/17/18 marks spot and screwing out up to 2 full turns in 5 marks increments, evaluating tuner’s behaviour.
After finding my spots, I will tune again at different temperatures trying to correlate tuner’s dialing and degrees' changes
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Not sure why you are not consistent in your tuner adjustments (5,4,3,2, etc). The tuner requires fine adjustments and it seems you might possibly be skipping over a better setting. I use the same tuner and when testing I go from 0 (completely screwed in) and from there I screw out 2 hash marks(2), shoot, screw out another 2 hash marks (4) and so forth. The groups will spread, and then tighten and spread again. Once I find the setting where the groups tighten, I use a setting in the middle of the two best settings and call it good.
Very good points. I've said it about a gazillion times but I'm going to keep saying it....By far the most common mistake people make with a tuner is making too big of adjustments. The best advice I can offer is to assume everything you've heard or read about how to use a tuner is wrong!
Be very methodical, make tiny adjustments, and you'll soon wonder how we ever got by without tuners. Random adjustments and generally any more than one mark movement at a time,...and you'll never figure them out.
Tuners are EXTREMELY easy to use if you'll just do this.--Mike Ezell
Thanks for your replies.
I would say that my first test was more or less about “does it work?”. After admitting “yes, it works” I will be more accurate trying to make small adjustments.
My only issue is burning too many rounds and my barrel, i.e. 2 full turns out means 50 hash marks, and shooting 3 shots groups for each mark means 150 rounds!
I would say that my first test was more or less about “does it work?”. After admitting “yes, it works” I will be more accurate trying to make small adjustments.
My only issue is burning too many rounds and my barrel, i.e. 2 full turns out means 50 hash marks, and shooting 3 shots groups for each mark means 150 rounds!
The last two I help with took a total of 6 shots . And the shooter did the movement lll
The 3 Line above can be more
Movement then 5 tunes 3 for sure
Larry
The 3 Line above can be more
Movement then 5 tunes 3 for sure
Larry
No need to go two turns out. IME, it's either tuned or its not. By that I mean, bullet exit happens at optimal muzzle position. With my tuner, that typically happens 2-3 times in each revolution.
Remember....assume everything you've heard or read about tuners is wrong. Prove things out on your own, is the best way. Chasing down mythical notions only confuses and holds you back.
Am I looking at this wrong, but your 9 and 10 are one hole groups in the same location on the target. If so why waste any more ammo, I'd fine tune around there and call it good.
Kings X
Gold $$ Contributor
Let's say that I have found the setting that gives me the smallest group while tuning . Do you change the setting before a match due to "conditions"? An earlier post said that he changed his between strings and the group improved. But that is too late - points are already lost. Can we be Pro Active?
Yes. Tuners do two things. One is they widen the tune window by simply having mass at the end of the barrel. To a point, heavier is better in this regard. Of course we have to work within weight limits and gun handling parameters here.
Second, is that they allow us to easily get back in tune WHEN it goes away on us.
You can chart temps and/or density altitude and do a pretty good job of maintaining tune just by that, but in the end, there's nothing better than shooting sighters to determine and correct tune issues.
Once you establish a good setting, you are not constantly fiddling with it. You simply move it a mark or two based and group size and shape. I typically tune during the warm-up, first thing in the am. Conditions are usual best then and chances are good that they are most different than when I last shot the rifle...i.e., finish the prior match in afternoon heat and now I'm shooting first relay, first warm-up, at 8 or 9 am on match day.
A very typical scenario with my tuners is that there are 4 marks between completely in tune to completely out of tune. I've never moved that far for condition related changes. Two marks is a big adjustment and I seldom have had to move it even that far, over the course of a whole day.
But yes, sighters are the best way, and detailed charting of tuner setting for conditions is next best. Both can be done before shooting for record.
Remember, they widen the tune window just by being there, and I'm often at my best setting, "as is." So, if you're not sure, the safest thing is to leave it alone.
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Thank you Chris..and I agree about developing a feel for when and how far to move them, but it's simpler than that. You just have to establish what completely in and out of tune look like and correlate that to tuner settings. The do the same with group size and shapes that are between in tune and completely out. It happens really fast. You're always going to be working within a small range of tuner movement, so it's very easy and typically takes a short period of time to get the hang of. It's much simpler than learning how to maintain tune with powder charge and seating depth method...not even close, imho.Feeling Yoda-ish this a.m., so "To Mike's advice, listen you should!"Just finished the best IBS Score season I've had in many years. The main reason? I used one of Mike's tuners and was able to keep my go-to 6PPC load in tune, no matter what the temperature and weather did. It worked so well I was able to go to all Matches pre-loaded. With a PPC, no less! The only time the loading box left the shop was for a trip to range to wring-out a new lot or powder, or new batch of bullets.
The tuner was screwed all the way on, and then backed out about two (2) full turns or until the 0 was at the 12 o'clock position. I then tuned the powder and jam until I had repeatable 3 shot groups with no vertical or horizontal. The particulars and temperature were recorded. The next time out if the temperature was more than 10-15 degrees higher or lower I'd make a MINOR adjustment to the Tuner's setting, usually 1/2 of a "tic" mark . . . sometimes less. As the season went on it seemed like I developed a "feel" for when it needed adjustment, and would do so, even in the middle of a Match. The results speak for themselves.
Chris Mitchell
As Mike will tell you, once you have your tune at the range you can start to spend your time on the range readying the wind flags. Some wind flags are easier to read than others.
I love long range shooting,
Ben
jackieschmidt
Gold $$ Contributor
For long range shooters, who tune for the best ES and SD numbers, you get those numbers right and then use the tuner to improve the grouping capability of the Rifle.
In short range, 100, 200, 300, I use the same brand of barrels, powder charge, primer, seating depth, etc all the time. In 6mm, that will be a .237 4 groove a Krieger. In 30 BR, that will be .300 4 groove Krieger. I fine tune the agging capability with the tuner.
Years ago, the best Benchrest Shooter who ever lived used the same method minus the tuner. He had a proven bullet/powder combo that he had faith in, and if a barrel would not shoot that combo, he did not waste his time and bullets with it.
In my 30BR score Rifle, I use the tuner to mainly keep the rifle shooting nice round groups, hopefully at below .200 agging capability. The killer in score shooting is to get caught in a side to side tune that is way too wind sensitive. The rifle may seem to be in tune because it’s shooting flat, but if you keep missing the X to the left or right because you simply cannot see what is moving the bullets, you are in a horizontal wind sensitive tune.
A tuner is not a cure all for a bad load or a mediocre barrel. It has always been my contention that with a tuner, all you can get is the most out of what any barrel was born with. It will not turn a .280 barrel into a .150 barrel.
In short range, 100, 200, 300, I use the same brand of barrels, powder charge, primer, seating depth, etc all the time. In 6mm, that will be a .237 4 groove a Krieger. In 30 BR, that will be .300 4 groove Krieger. I fine tune the agging capability with the tuner.
Years ago, the best Benchrest Shooter who ever lived used the same method minus the tuner. He had a proven bullet/powder combo that he had faith in, and if a barrel would not shoot that combo, he did not waste his time and bullets with it.
In my 30BR score Rifle, I use the tuner to mainly keep the rifle shooting nice round groups, hopefully at below .200 agging capability. The killer in score shooting is to get caught in a side to side tune that is way too wind sensitive. The rifle may seem to be in tune because it’s shooting flat, but if you keep missing the X to the left or right because you simply cannot see what is moving the bullets, you are in a horizontal wind sensitive tune.
A tuner is not a cure all for a bad load or a mediocre barrel. It has always been my contention that with a tuner, all you can get is the most out of what any barrel was born with. It will not turn a .280 barrel into a .150 barrel.
I have a friend in Australia and he is my shooting coach. we both use home built tuners that he made in his garage.
We "characterize" all new barrels by shooting groups without the tuner. We shoot 5 - 5shot groups with each group of 5 have powder loads that increase 1 % steps from min load to max load. We shoot 5 shot groups as that is way statistically better than 2 or 3 shots. Did I mention we are both Electronic Engineers? We shoot these five 5 shot groups in round robin fashion and record Mv on each shot. We don't even worry about groups.
Then we plot the Avg Mv, SD and ES for each group and enter the data into Excel and plot a curve of load vs ES. Then we do a curve fit with 4th or 5th order polynomial and find the "true" curve of Load vs ES.
This step allows you to find the longitudinal resonance and tune for best ES.
Then we put the tuner on and shoot 3 shot groups with realistic tuner adjustment steps. These 3 shot groups have one round with optimum load, one with 1% high and one 1% low. We do this at range for best group or vertical dispersion.Again, we have vert. data and we plot this in Excel and find best tune (now we are tuning the cantilever resonance of the barrel. We mark the tips of the bullets with red for +1% and blue for -1% and leave nominal un-marked. This way we can identify the tuner setting vs vert spread. We tune for a slight bit of positive compensation for 1000 yd. That means the hi load impacts slightly below the low load.
Done! Only thing to do now is test tuner settings at different temps and plot that so you can easily adjust the tuner for ambient temp.
Don't forget, a tuner will not make a bad barrel good, just allow a good barrel to shoot its best.
We "characterize" all new barrels by shooting groups without the tuner. We shoot 5 - 5shot groups with each group of 5 have powder loads that increase 1 % steps from min load to max load. We shoot 5 shot groups as that is way statistically better than 2 or 3 shots. Did I mention we are both Electronic Engineers? We shoot these five 5 shot groups in round robin fashion and record Mv on each shot. We don't even worry about groups.
Then we plot the Avg Mv, SD and ES for each group and enter the data into Excel and plot a curve of load vs ES. Then we do a curve fit with 4th or 5th order polynomial and find the "true" curve of Load vs ES.
This step allows you to find the longitudinal resonance and tune for best ES.
Then we put the tuner on and shoot 3 shot groups with realistic tuner adjustment steps. These 3 shot groups have one round with optimum load, one with 1% high and one 1% low. We do this at range for best group or vertical dispersion.Again, we have vert. data and we plot this in Excel and find best tune (now we are tuning the cantilever resonance of the barrel. We mark the tips of the bullets with red for +1% and blue for -1% and leave nominal un-marked. This way we can identify the tuner setting vs vert spread. We tune for a slight bit of positive compensation for 1000 yd. That means the hi load impacts slightly below the low load.
Done! Only thing to do now is test tuner settings at different temps and plot that so you can easily adjust the tuner for ambient temp.
Don't forget, a tuner will not make a bad barrel good, just allow a good barrel to shoot its best.
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