Tuner experience

[carlsbad]

I've been accused of being bit by the "tuner bug" so I thought I'd post my experience.

I'm a traditionalist. I believe that generally things develop over decades or centuries with wisdom and there are advantages to the traditional wisdom not immediately visible to you, no matter how smart you are. So that is where I start. But I am also an innovator, always looking for a better or smarter way of doing things. It gets complicated.

It isn't easy for me to run to the range frequently for load development. I'm a single dad raising 2 kids who are now in high school. I can go to the garage and thread a barrel while they're doing homework but I can't run to the range. In fact, 1x/month is about what I get done and that is usually on the day of our varmint match. Traditional load development could take several months and what I find myself doing is guessing at the best load and going with that for the match.

Enter the tuner--a way to tune any load to match the frequency of the barrel. I know this isn't all there is to load development but it is a large part of it. The tuner allows me to take my best load and then adjust the rifle to match it, rather than vice versa.

Below are photos of my target used to dial in the tuner. I bought a PDT Tuner from Ezell Precision Rifles (gunsandgunsmithing on the forum) and installed it. I loaded up a load that I thought would give me about 2950 fps and went to the range. I chose setting 20 to start because it was about 1/2 turn from the stop and a round number. As you can see the group got a little tighter at 21, real tight at 22, still tight at 23, and then opened up again at 24. approximate group sizes as follows (3 shot groups):

20 .390
21 .380
22 .196
23 .204
24 .355
22 .186 (confirmation group after choosing this setting)

Rifle shot great for the match. Bad windreading at 600 yards cost me the match. CharlieYankeeSierra won the match with a great score of 46/50. But I was very happy with the rifle.

So I have a 223 and a 308 that aren't as tight as i want them. They will likely get tuners soon.
--Jerry

 

[Medic505]

Man, you just let the cat out of the bag.......

I've been using a tuner (Bryant Precision) shooting F-TR for a long time. Best thing I ever tried.

 

[carlsbad]

Should I delete this post?

 

[Medic505]

Many times I've told people I compete with, Man, you should try a tuner. I stopped one day when I realized they were wearing out good barrels doing load development. The death of a hummer.....

Great write up BTW!

 

[AckleymanII]

Thanks for posting.

Carlsbad, do you think that given time, you could get the groups much tighter screwing around more, given good atmospheric conditions?

I must admit to being ignorant of tunners, other than the Browning BOSS that has worked well for me on half a dozen bolt and BAR's.

I have a questions:

1. concering where a novice may start using a Tuner like this, do you screw it all the way out and start screwing back in, or do you screw all the way in, and start backing out?

2. in recording measurements, from your tremendous success, if you were to keep screwing the tuner out/in more, how do you track that distance? I had to make many revolutions with the browning boss system, but I finally got them to shooting small groups.

3. Since I have zero experience with a tuner other than the Browning BOSS, there is no a lock nut that buts up against a shoulder of the tunner or the barrel which has to be indexed by the gunsmith where the two are locked against each other with 12 o'clock position indicated....Refer to Browning boss system. I must be missing something.

4. Threads have to be cut pretty darn tight I would suppose for the use of a tuner? I am missing something I am sure.

I had such great success with Browning Boss systems on Bolt and BAR's, that I should have them on every rifle, just different...you know how different is...people are slow to change and accept new ideas.

After shooting the Browing Boss systems, I thought at the time that the BOSS system may be as important as wind flags. Life came along and I forgot about the Boss tuners.

Any insight would be appreciated.

 

[carlsbad]

AkleymanII,
Answers:

1. Directions come from Ezell and I followed them exactly. Frankly, you start at a random location and determine your best setting experimentally. The nodes repeat several times per revolution. Since this is a stiff barrel, small tuner changes were all that was needed. A less stiff barrel may need more movement.
2. I doubt there is much more to be gained. Once you get it at a node, that's all you're going to get. As for "tremendous success", note that the rifle was already shooting under 1/2" before I started. I am ecstatic abott the results but it isn't a fountain of youth.
3. Some tuners lock. Mike has designed this one to stay in place without a locknut. I really like his design. I won't share his design here since he developed it and it is part of his livelihood but it is slick. Move it to a setting and it stays there. note the centerpunch mark I put on the barrel for an indicator.
4. Yes, good and smooth threads are a must. Fine threads. I spend an extra few minutes getting them exactly the fit I wanted. I'd say my fit is class 3+ threads but I'm not sure that is necessary.

I'm not familiar with the browning boss system. Mike has developed a system that is easy to tune and works well. Others, including other forum members, also have systems tested to work. I haven't tried these but I can endorse the PDT.

Developing one of these systems isn't something you can just draw up on paper and assume it will work. It takes a lot of experimental data to figure out what works best and puts the user in the center of the adjustment range with the right amount of movement per turn. I recommend going with a proven product to save yourself headache.

--Jerry

 

[AckleymanII]

Thanks Jerry for your detailed response, and with all the work that goes into these, buying an established brand of tunner is cheap money.

Your experience mirrors several other guys on the board with what ever tunner they are using. I just need to get off my butt and make the plunge.

Your showing .5" groups to high .1's is impressive and very little rocket science to figure out, several nodes per revolution, can't get much better than that!

Thanks

 

[Marksman63]

How many TPI is your tuner and how many marks per turn? Thanks

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Hey Jerry, nice write up and thank you for the kind words.

A couple of things of note...One is that your results are quite typical in terms of how far between in to out of tune and the out of tune groups are quite consistent with what I expect to see from a typical br rig when the tuner is completely out of tune, as far as it can be....high .3s or even low .4s. This is normal, IME.

What's very typical from my experience with this tuner is for there to only be 4-6 marks between completely in tune to completely out of tune and that the tune simply repeats itself for the entire travel length. So, yes there are multiple sweet spots in each revolution. It is my experience that no one sweet spot is sweeter than the next, measurably. It's either in time and tune or it isn't.

In virtually every case, the group size and shape is quite predictable. I've had good success looking at pics of groups sent to me and then telling customers how far to move the tuner to bring it into good tune by just group size and shape. What is very typical, is that when completely out of tune the gun shoots high 3s to low 4s into big, ugly round groups. Move it 1 mark, the groups go diagonal, still about the same size or a tad smaller. One more mark is usually still stairsteps, but smaller..let's say about .250ish. Move 1 more mark, and the groups go to about a bullet hole of straight vertical..and the last adjustment, also only 1 mark, typically sucks those right together into a bullet hole or as small as that load will shoot in that rifle. Again, this is what's extremely typical in a short range br contour barrel.

Yours is a tad different but the end result the same. For whatever reason, it looks like yours appears to be a little more abrupt than normal, going from high 3s to teens in one mark and not quite as predictable as I'm use to seeing. The diagonal is clear at 20 and still there in all the groups, a little bit.

The end result is still a good one but I'd try a couple of things. First, I'd try moving a 1/2 mark on both sides of 22, to see if if sucks them still tighter. I'm not familiar with your gun or it's capabilities, so I don't know it like you do. Overall, it's still giving good results but I'd also try going to the next node or two and see if it smooths out some and becomes more like my description above on a different node, just to see. I'd also go over the entire gun to make sure everything is tight and as it should be.

If I'd never used a tuner, I'd be tickled with what you're seeing. I've seen so many and so many groups from guns with them, I just nit pick things to, hopefully perfection. After all, aren't we all after just that? It may be all that load has in it and the slight issue may still be the load. Not criticizing at all..I just know what I want and how I want it, on my own gun and want you to realize all the tuner has to offer. I think there might be a little bit left on the table. Lets get it! As always, I'm happy to be of help. You can call me anytime! I want to help you get all it has from it.

All in all, sounds like you picked a load, at a given velocity, and made it shoot just by moving the tuner. Not bad at all!!! I don't advertise tuners as doing this but they do. I think load development is still a necessary evil to getting all the gun has in it, too. Tuners will allow you to extract whatever potential a given load has in a given gun and maintain that level through condition changes.

Pretty awesome, huh?


Thank you again for the good write up. Not being boastful, but I don't think there are many people out there that have as much experience with tuners as I do, nor the vibration analysis testing to go with it. I'm always happy to be of help for you or anyone else that wants to try one.

Tuners really do work. They are not too good to be true. They exist and your results prove that they work. --Mike Ezell

 

[carlsbad]

32 and 32 so each mark is very close to .001".

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

How many TPI is your tuner and how many marks per turn? Thanks

I can answer that. My tuners have 32tpi and have 32 marks around them. Each mark equals basically .001"

It's amazing how little movement it takes to make all the difference in the world.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

32 and 32 so each mark is very close to .001".

You beat me to it.

 

[carlsbad]

Mike,
I figure each time I go to the range with the tuner I will want to confirm the setting and may need to move it 1 mark either way depending on variations in load, powder lot, temperature, etc.

I thought about trying 1/2 marks but I figured 21 shots was enough through the barrel during warmup so I let the barrel cool before the match. I will try the 1/2 marks next time.

I kindo wish I had gone one more to 25. I probably didn't find the worst out of tune group since I got lucky and moved in the right direction first time.

Yes, I'm really happy and looking for a windreading class. Thanks for making such a good product.

--Jerry

 

[USMCDOC]

Just made a prototype for me.. going to try it on the 223..

Pics are terrible.. but

New pics..

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Mike,
I figure each time I go to the range with the tuner I will want to confirm the setting and may need to move it 1 mark either way depending on variations in load, powder lot, temperature, etc.

I thought about trying 1/2 marks but I figured 21 shots was enough through the barrel during warmup so I let the barrel cool before the match. I will try the 1/2 marks next time.

I kindo wish I had gone one more to 25. I probably didn't find the worst out of tune group since I got lucky and moved in the right direction first time.

Yes, I'm really happy and looking for a windreading class. Thanks for making such a good product.

--Jerry

Something else I've found is that when changing the load, you will never be more than the 4-6 marks that it takes to go from in to out of tune..no matter what you do to the load. That's cool too! It'll always be within those same 4-6 marks.

Another thing...since the tune repeats itself over and over, if it's completely out of tune, you can go either direction and it'll improve.

 

[Chfcemerson]

Jerry and I were shooting together when all this was done, so I got a chance first hand to see how effective the tuner was and how quickly Jerry got it dialed in. My experience with tuners has always been that it takes a bit longer to find the "sweet spot". Jerry....I think you got lucky starting off where you did and finding it so quickly. I would rather be good than lucky...but lucky and good together work just fine.
Glenn

 

[Marksman63]

Mine is 24 TPI with 24 marks, therefore 0.001” as well.
I found a sweet spot at -10 marks out from 0 (tuner completely screwed in) but I would like to understand better its behaviour in order to address my testing shots.
Two full turns out mean 50 different marks’ combinations and considering 4 temperature conditions, i.e. 30/50/70/90F, and 3 shots for each combination, it will need 600 test shots to find out a sort of equation/correlation.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Mine is 24 TPI with 24 marks, therefore 0.001” as well.
I found a sweet spot at -10 marks out from 0 (tuner completely screwed in) but I would like to understand better its behaviour in order to address my testing shots.
Two full turns out mean 50 different marks’ combinations and considering 4 temperature conditions, i.e. 30/50/70/90F, and 3 shots for each combination, it will need 600 test shots to find out a sort of equation/correlation.

By my math, a 24tpi with 24 marks would .0017, almost .002" per mark, fwiw. Design comes into play too. .001 may be great for one tuner but not with another design.

They're very easy to use. Just don't over complicate but be very methodical. The most common mistake is moving them too far at a time. With my tuner, on a cf rifle, .002 is too far to call it being methodical.

 

[carlsbad]

Jerry and I were shooting together when all this was done, so I got a chance first hand to see how effective the tuner was and how quickly Jerry got it dialed in. My experience with tuners has always been that it takes a bit longer to find the "sweet spot". Jerry....I think you got lucky starting off where you did and finding it so quickly. I would rather be good than lucky...but lucky and good together work just fine.
Glenn

Glenn,
I probably got a little lucky but I think that your experience is with 22lr tuners which aren't as friendly. Also, I am standing on the shoulders of Mike who developed a tuner that is quick to tune.

good shooting. --Jerry

 

[Curious]

Carlsbad,

Did you just pick a random seating depth for this load?

Did you then do any further seating depth optimisation?

I have made my own tuners in the past and seeing the way that moving them only 0.001" at a time can visibly shrink the groups is impressive but ultimately I never ended up with a better shooting rifle than I already had. My regular method of finding an OCW then tuning the seating depth has always delivered results just as good.

I fitted a tuner which I locked against the shoulder and ran an OCW test, I then tuned the seating depth to give me 5 shot groups in the low 0.2s (its a 600 & 1000yd BR gun shooting boat tails) as I adjusted the tuner over say a 10 thou range of 1 thou increments all it did was take my load out of tune and then bring it back in again to the same level of accuracy. This would happen time after time, accurate nodes would come and go as Mike described but none were really any better than another. I concluded from this that tuner doesn't make a rifle more accurate. It might get you a load to use faster but that load may not be as stable and might well need tuning again.

I would still like to find some improvements with a tuner but when the gun is winning comps its hard to tinker with a winning combination.

Im glad to see your a convert, sadly Im still very much a fence sitter