Tuner adjustment on the target

[Tim Singleton]

Hello
I would like to see some pictures of targets showing an out of tune load then the pictures after the tuner adjustment to in tune
I have seen some sine wave test pics shared by Mike @gunsandgunsmithing those are interesting and I would like to see some of those.
But more importantly pictures from a match showing the match target when you realized you were out of tune and made the tuner adjustments then the effect the adjustment had on the next match

 

[BoydAllen]

I have some pictures on my phone from a friend who has his working very well. PM me a cell phone number and I will send a couple.

 

[Tim Singleton]

I posted these pictures on another thread and dont want to derail that thread.
If you are preloaded for a match would you have done anything with your tuner based on what you see from match one

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Hello
I would like to see some pictures of targets showing an out of tune load then the pictures after the tuner adjustment to in tune
I have seen some sine wave test pics shared by Mike @gunsandgunsmithing those are interesting and I would like to see some of those.
But more importantly pictures from a match showing the match target when you realized you were out of tune and made the tuner adjustments then the effect the adjustment had on the next match

Not much time today. Still cleaning up from the storms Friday night.
It really doesn't matter if the target is this sine test or if it's fired in a match, the group SHAPES still happen in the same progression. The sine test just offers more info to work from, but not needed once tuned for a given load...Maybe more on that later but I've discussed it many, many times on here.

For the context of your question, just look at 10, 11, and 12 on here. Forget everything except group SHAPE! This is EXACTLY what I look for the groups to do, moving MY standard tuner ONE mark at a time.

In this very clear(to me) example, if I get vertical(11), I'd move the tuner IN one mark. If I get 12, I move in two marks. The beauty of the sine test is it shows you how far, which way, top and bottom of swing, as well as mark values and how far between sweet spots. You must establish mark values relative to group shapes or else, you're guessing, no matter what tuner or who it is shooting.

Yessir!!! It IS that predictable too!

Later!

 

[Tim Singleton]

It would be great to see someone share some match targets with changes they made to tuner settings

Anyone?

 

[foxguy]

Not much time today. Still cleaning up from the storms Friday night.
It really doesn't matter if the target is this sine test or if it's fired in a match, the group SHAPES still happen in the same progression. The sine test just offers more info to work from, but not needed once tuned for a given load...Maybe more on that later but I've discussed it many, many times on here.

For the context of your question, just look at 10, 11, and 12 on here. Forget everything except group SHAPE! This is EXACTLY what I look for the groups to do, moving MY standard tuner ONE mark at a time.

In this very clear(to me) example, if I get vertical(11), I'd move the tuner IN one mark. If I get 12, I move in two marks. The beauty of the sine test is it shows you how far, which way, top and bottom of swing, as well as mark values and how far between sweet spots. You must establish mark values relative to group shapes or else, you're guessing, no matter what tuner or who it is shooting.

Yessir!!! It IS that predictable too!

Later!

View attachment 1661577

The Sine Wave is pretty easy to see in this test. Would this be true for most any tuner. Or is this unique to your tuner? Thanks for sharing.

 

[memilanuk]

More importantly, does it repeat?

ie if you take the exact same load, and run the exact same test three days in a row, all on one piece of paper, how much noise/variation do you see?

Less interested in one cherry-picked 'textbook' example from three years ago.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

The Sine Wave is pretty easy to see in this test. Would this be true for most any tuner. Or is this unique to your tuner? Thanks for sharing.

Any tuner should show the sine to a degree but some tuners show it more clearly and some guns show it more clearly than others as well...but it's virtually always there, as are the group shapes.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

More importantly, does it repeat?

ie if you take the exact same load, and run the exact same test three days in a row, all on one piece of paper, how much noise/variation do you see?

Less interested in one cherry-picked 'textbook' example from three years ago.

The previous target posted nor these, were shot by me. I use the previous target often because it's exemplary. The clearer it is in a pic, I feel the better it is as an example to show.

Below is what you asked for. Again, not shot by me but sent to me because even after he has bought and used several of my tuners, he's still amazed at how repeatable it is!

I don't understand the skepticism any more. Maybe 10 or so years ago, but at this point, they have proven to work over and over many times.

Sometimes we have to see things for ourselves but that's testing and testing is how we know stuff.

The previous target vs these were fired with my two different models of tuners and they do respond similarly but not exact. Every tuner make will respond differently and have different mark values relative to group shapes. So much so, my standard model has 32 marks and this one..10, but calibrated by mark intervals as closely as possible so that I can still instruct customers to move my tuners 1 mark at a time. YMMV with a different tuner make. Until you establish mark values with any tuner, you are simply moving and hoping.
I think that's the number 1 reason some people struggle with them. Ya can't move in some random amount and expect predictable results. Just like powder or seating depth.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

It would be great to see someone share some match targets with changes they made to tuner settings

Anyone?

Tim, there are days I never touch the tuner and there are days I move a mark or maybe two, but two is a pretty big change for a given and proven load. I think you might be imagining people constantly moving tuners but those that do...are lost, frankly. But bottom line, I watch my targets throughout the match but I don't keep them. So I don't have match target pics, but I still don't see the difference in a test target vs a match target, in the context of your post. Unless, you are gauging how many people respond here that they do or don't move one during a match. If you see me moving a tuner at a match, it either needs it or I'm just checking/confirming tune on the sighter. I'd say it's about 50/50, days that I need to move a mark or not, throughout a day. Just like powder tuning, it's contingent upon condition changes on any given day. Some days the same load hammers all day and others, not so much...and you adjust the load for those conditions....I adjust the tuner instead..now.

You've gone away from tuners and in another thread, you referred to them as ornaments. Perhaps you will share your process of using a tuner and which one, so we'll know what not to do. Lol!

Also, when tuning with powder or seating, how do you know when and by how much to change either? That's the trick, by either method of tuning, IMHO. So, what group shapes make you decide to change loads and by how much?

It seems to me that you are taking tuners to task but if our methods are different, I think it might be expected to have different results. So, explaining your process may be of help to us all. Feel free to post pics of your tuner tests and your process. That'd be awesome! TIA

 

[Tim Singleton]

Tim, there are days I never touch the tuner and there are days I move a mark or maybe two, but two is a pretty big change for a given and proven load. I think you might be imagining people constantly moving tuners but those that do...are lost, frankly. But bottom line, I watch my targets throughout the match but I don't keep them. So I don't have match target pics, but I still don't see the difference in a test target vs a match target, in the context of your post. Unless, you are gauging how many people respond here that they do or don't move one during a match. If you see me moving a tuner at a match, it either needs it or I'm just checking/confirming tune on the sighter. I'd say it's about 50/50, days that I need to move a mark or not, throughout a day. Just like powder tuning, it's contingent upon condition changes on any given day. Some days the same load hammers all day and others, not so much...and you adjust the load for those conditions....I adjust the tuner instead..now.

You've gone away from tuners and in another thread, you referred to them as ornaments. Perhaps you will share your process of using a tuner and which one, so we'll know what not to do. Lol!

Also, when tuning with powder or seating, how do you know when and by how much to change either? That's the trick, by either method of tuning, IMHO. So, what group shapes make you decide to change loads and by how much?

It seems to me that you are taking tuners to task but if our methods are different, I think it might be expected to have different results. So, explaining your process may be of help to us all. Feel free to post pics of your tuner tests and your process. That'd be awesome! TIA

No, sr. Not taking them to task by any means
My purpose with this thread was to try to learn what Ive been doing wrong!

 

[Mulligan]

Tim, if you interested, I have an example of tuner “work” during a 600 yard BR match that I could share?

CW

 

[Bob3700]

Not much time today. Still cleaning up from the storms Friday night.
It really doesn't matter if the target is this sine test or if it's fired in a match, the group SHAPES still happen in the same progression. The sine test just offers more info to work from, but not needed once tuned for a given load...Maybe more on that later but I've discussed it many, many times on here.

For the context of your question, just look at 10, 11, and 12 on here. Forget everything except group SHAPE! This is EXACTLY what I look for the groups to do, moving MY standard tuner ONE mark at a time.

In this very clear(to me) example, if I get vertical(11), I'd move the tuner IN one mark. If I get 12, I move in two marks. The beauty of the sine test is it shows you how far, which way, top and bottom of swing, as well as mark values and how far between sweet spots. You must establish mark values relative to group shapes or else, you're guessing, no matter what tuner or who it is shooting.

Yessir!!! It IS that predictable too!

Later!

View attachment 1661577

A very interesting example of shots following a sign wave. It seems that the groups become more round at the top n bottom of the wave. This would seem to be where the bbl “Stops” . Anywhere in between the bbl is moving. Am I understanding this correctly?

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

A very interesting example of shots following a sign wave. It seems that the groups become more round at the top n bottom of the wave. This would seem to be where the bbl “Stops” . Anywhere in between the bbl is moving. Am I understanding this correctly?

I believe you nailed it. That sine test just shows so much good info. It's freakin solid gold, man! Generally, top and bottom produce small groups. Often, one end shows tune more clearly that the other but the shapes are still there. In SR cf, I really don't care, top or bottom but top is best in rf and lr, IME, because positive compensation CAN'T happen on the down swing. I go with whichever shows tune most clearly whenever I have and can see my sighters, ie...sr cf br. That gets a little more in depth but it matters, especially at longer range or rf, where ammo velocity es can be 40fps from the same box of $40 ammo!

 

[ricco1949]

Tim, if you interested, I have an example of tuner “work” during a 600 yard BR match that I could share?

CW

Please share this...I am very interested in how to use a tuner in LRBR.

 

[Tim Singleton]

Tim, if you interested, I have an example of tuner “work” during a 600 yard BR match that I could share?

CW

That would be great!

 

[ELR LVR]

I posted these pictures on another thread and dont want to derail that thread.
If you are preloaded for a match would you have done anything with your tuner based on what you see from match one

Thats some damn fine shooting!!!
What caliber?

 

[Tim Singleton]

Thats some damn fine shooting!!!
What caliber?

6ppc

 

[ELR LVR]

Not much time today. Still cleaning up from the storms Friday night.
It really doesn't matter if the target is this sine test or if it's fired in a match, the group SHAPES still happen in the same progression. The sine test just offers more info to work from, but not needed once tuned for a given load...Maybe more on that later but I've discussed it many, many times on here.

For the context of your question, just look at 10, 11, and 12 on here. Forget everything except group SHAPE! This is EXACTLY what I look for the groups to do, moving MY standard tuner ONE mark at a time.

In this very clear(to me) example, if I get vertical(11), I'd move the tuner IN one mark. If I get 12, I move in two marks. The beauty of the sine test is it shows you how far, which way, top and bottom of swing, as well as mark values and how far between sweet spots. You must establish mark values relative to group shapes or else, you're guessing, no matter what tuner or who it is shooting.

Yessir!!! It IS that predictable too!

Later!

View attachment 1661577

Group Zero
and Group 14
looks like it came full circle
is this one full rev or?
Can you tell me the distance the tuner moved in thousandths along the barrel length from the 0 to 14 mark?
-------------
Great info here

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

I posted these pictures on another thread and dont want to derail that thread.
If you are preloaded for a match would you have done anything with your tuner based on what you see from match one

FWIW, I'd say the tune got better(but 1 looks good too) or you made small and correct changes during the day. Looks like tune was good on 3 and 4 but conditions were a bit heavier. The shots seemed to go with what I'd guess is either a 10-4 or maybe 11-5 o' clock ish, depending on let ups or pickups. Good shooting either way. Those are my best guesses but where you were holding for each shot is unknown to me, of course.