truing remington 700 receivers

[rayjay]

CM came and requested honest opinions. He got them. People gave him the most precious thing they have [ their time ]. He should be glad to get a variety of opinions and ideas.

 

[Larryh128]

I think its natural to want to turn your hobby into a career. I have done it twice, first was drag racing->mechanic, sold the drag car, now I wont even change my own oil. Then competitive shooting-> rifle building, have not shot competitively in 3 years. I dont regret it, and in my second career I wanted that change, and love what I do. But I can warn you that your hobby will probably never be the same once it turns into your career.

HOW TRUE!!!! If you love your hobby, keep it as a hobby. I do hobby gunsmithing and constantly keep turning down work from others. Can I do it? Yes, I can but I'm not screwing up my hobby, I did that once already.

 

[300_whisper]

Gents, sorry didn't mean to sidetrack anything. There was a lot of good advice given, I just read it the wrong way. I think If someone would steer CM in the right direction on the best way to pursue his goals. Like I said, I'm not a gunsmith, so I can't help him out. Thanks for everyone's time.

Also, the keep a hobby idea is a good one. Advertise to friends and family to get some work in. I have a buddy who does that. Works out pretty well for him.

 

[cmillard]

Dont worry to all. I can take criticism but i may have been a little sarcastic with at least one of my replies

 

[Randfal]

Dont worry to all. I can take criticism but i may have been a little sarcastic with at least one of my replies

Cmillard,
First off, keep your head up. Regardless of what some will tell you, everyone starts out somewhere and everyone has screwed something up at least once in their life.
I'll throw in a few of my opinions for the record too. Sorry for long reply...

This site has historically been about true precision and to some of us we take the true part as gospel. You walked into the wrong forum and asked the wrong questions; you implied cheap quick work, done by hand, had a buddy helping you..... Thats like walking into a 70's biker bar and asking out loud for a mocha latte frapicino with stevia. While it's a refreshing drink, you don't ask for it there. Lol.
For an action to be "true" and "pure" it has to be perfect. This involves precise, rigid setups with precise measuring tools and very careful attention to detail.
While the Mansion equipment is sound in its theory, it would be near impossible to truly "true" an action by hand. I would never say totally impossible because we've all seen masterpieces built by true craftsmen of old.
I am guilty of looking at the Manson gear and daydreaming of a quick and cheap way to truing an action. Perhaps the term "improved" action should be used with those tools. At the end of the day I still think lathe work is best. Also, some guys are immediately put off by the use of a tap (I generally am too) but most do not know that there is a whole classification system for taps and taps can be made to cut very accurate pitch diameters if they are held correctly, supported rigidly and operated in precision equipment. Not by hand. I really like Dave Manson reamers and tools and I'm confident he can make some outstanding taps and cutters, just not by hand.
Guide bushings only help so much. The fact that they are bushings mean there must be tolerances that, once stacked, add up to "not true" runout. If you put dial indicators on the hand tools and watched the amount of flex/push/pull you can apply to the tool while operating it, you would be amazed.

I'm under the faith that "Trued" means trued. Period. .0005"max tolerances if your gonna put that label on it. And that's not easy.
I doubt most hack gunsmiths even have the ability to accurately measure an action to gage their work.

I, like a lot of precision metal smiths, get upset with all the hillbilly hack gunsmiths that post videos of their work on YouTube representing us all. Some put out crap work like their grand pappy Billy Bob and their uncle Bob Billy taught em to. They are giving some gunsmiths bad names and we get defensive over it.

I'm a believer in hands on training and on the job training under a qualified person. As long as you're being safe, improving and moving forward, great! I'm also not opposed to self taught gunsmiths with a passion for the industry.
I taught myself to thread bolts on a shop lathe years ago without one single bit of help from anyone. As I evolved, I wanted to know more and get better. I physically read the Machinery Handbook(1968 edition, my new one isn't gonna get read in my lifetime). For those of you that don't know what that book is, get off the friggin Internet and get a copy. In my area, you say pitch diameter and you'll get a blank stare. I'd wager to say I'm the only guy threading true ClassIII threads as a standard. I've raised the bar for some other locals. I know most of them and I'm the only one with thread micrometers, only guy with thread measuring wires that knows how to use them, only guy with go-no-go gages for all the popular gun barrel threads. I'm self taught, so piss off naysayers. I'm not meaning to toot my horn that much. Just saying a lot of guys buy an old junk lathe and call themselves gunsmiths.
I have more invested in tooling and specialty measuring equipment than most hacks have into their last two Harley's. Don't tell my wife.

But none of that tooling or any bias schooling will help you one bit if you do not have a passion to accel at what you do with them. Asking around here and other sites, reading and filtering what you read, looking at other's work, listening to customers wants and needs are great ways to gain some knowledge. If you think you want to make a go of improving actions for $50, go for it. Just learn your market and only advertise want you truly can deliver. Whether it's a Trued action or a slightly improved action. Some of us purists have different definitions of a Trued action on this site. Chances are they'll both shoot great.

 

[bibsmachine]

I think its natural to want to turn your hobby into a career. I have done it twice, first was drag racing->mechanic, sold the drag car, now I wont even change my own oil. Then competitive shooting-> rifle building, have not shot competitively in 3 years. I dont regret it, and in my second career I wanted that change, and love what I do. But I can warn you that your hobby will probably never be the same once it turns into your career.

Got that right Alex!!!

 

[GenePoole]

I'd wager to say I'm the only guy threading true ClassIII threads as a standard.

Honestly, people tend to throw the "Class 3" spec out there a lot, but have you looked in your Machinery's Handbook for 1-1/16 class 3A and 3B specs? 3A shows a PD from 1.0181 to 1.0219 and a 3B from 1.0219 to 1.0268 so your class 3 go/no-go gauges could theoretically pass with 0.0087 slop; that's gonna piss off most of the Type A guys I deal with were they ever to pull that barrel off and feel that kind of fit. I strive for better.

 

[SamLS]

Shiny surfaces do not mean true. There is one way to true and action and thats indicated in on the centerline and single point cut (yes some do it in a cnc mill too). The hand tools do NOT true actions. Minor thread diameter doesnt mater, pitch diameter does and a guided tap is not going to fix that. Lapping is another way of screwing up an action. You will not end up with flat perpendicular surfaces. There is a reason that guys charge what they do, they are doing it properly. Not trying to be a dick about it, but I have seen enough cheap truing jobs. Its false advertising, they are not trued.
To go into some detail, First the guidance is done with a rod and bushings. The centerline is between those 2 bushings. They dont take into account for the warpage of the action. So you not really on true center. If you use the tapered bushings its even worse as now because your relying on the chamfer to set your front center and the extraction cam to set your rear (really screwed up now). Add up all the clearances, rod flex and you will see why they just shine things up, trig it out and you will see how close the lugs need to be to perpendicular for proper seating. Its easy enough to un-true and action in a lathe with that bushing set up let alone hand tools. Sorry.

Interesting. We checked the results of the piloted bushing taps and the results of the "professional" single point method out of curiosity. The results would surprise most, and contradict conventional wisdom. the lug abutments and action face are normally parallel as i think most are machined from the same setup with both methods. But the threads are typically tapered from the single point method, I suspect tool deflection and or off axis saddle travel on the lathe ( no machine can be perfect). The thread pitch ie roundness also showed distortion , I suspect from clamping pressure. The axis alignment ie thread axis vs action bore axis favored the piloted hand tap. Excellent results can be had from either method, as well as very poor results. How many gunsmiths actually have the inspection equipment to determine how "true" their truing jobs are? I always chuckle when I see these discussions.

 

[Randfal]

Honestly, people tend to throw the "Class 3" spec out there a lot, but have you looked in your Machinery's Handbook for 1-1/16 class 3A and 3B specs? 3A shows a PD from 1.0181 to 1.0219 and a 3B from 1.0219 to 1.0268 so your class 3 go/no-go gauges could theoretically pass with 0.0087 slop; that's gonna piss off most of the Type A guys I deal with were they ever to pull that barrel off and feel that kind of fit. I strive for better.

Whoops! I just checked in quick. Gotta post more later. Some of us gotta work. Lol.
I made a mistake. I meant to say/add, "in my area" to my comment about ClassIII threading. My bad.

 

[grandslam 4]

Truing action is not a just do job, over my 50 yrs of smithing I have done several, setup turn face of receiver, turn bolt face and the chores go on when threading the barrel tenon etc, The truing tooling cost money
I buy the only CNC action as they come off the CNC machined to the millionth Attched is a photo
of the Classic Hunter Receiver made by TL Tecnologies of Lancaster ,Pa Contact Lyons Gunsmithing
@jlyons1@comcast.net ,pics and flyer attached

 

[grandslam 4]

truing action is not a just do job , buy a CNC action there perfect , Just open the box and screw on the barrel, done. TL Technologies markets these receivers through Lyons Gunsmithing @jyons1@comcast.net They retail @ 650.00 incuding pic rails, SS follower, oversize lug, Controlled round feed Reminton footprint long an short versions

 

[GenePoole]

I buy the only CNC action as they come off the CNC machined to the millionth

Are you trolling or spamming?

 

[JRS]

I've seen a couple of handguns made by TL Technologies. Great craftsmanship.

 

[Ggmac]

He is T L tech

 

[butchlambert]

truing action is not a just do job , buy a CNC action there perfect , Just open the box and screw on the barrel, done. TL Technologies markets these receivers through Lyons Gunsmithing @jyons1@comcast.net They retail @ 650.00 incuding pic rails, SS follower, oversize lug, Controlled round feed Reminton footprint long an short versions

CRF? I'd like to see a pic of the bolt.

 

[JRS]

 

[butchlambert]

Thanks

 

[tobnpr]

Discussed the truing tooling with both "Daves"...

For those that say a mandrel piloted tap cannot produce the same precision of single-pointing, please do what these guys did, and show different results to disprove them.

Buy the tooling, ream the receiver and re-cut the threads per instructions.
Set it up in whatever truing fixture you use to single-point on your lathe, pickup the threads precisely and turning the spindle by hand- see if you get any additional cleanup on the threads. They say, no difference.

I have read the arguments that nothing can produce the same level of precision as single-pointing and am unconvinced. Too often, we get into minutiae of the level " it won't show at the target".
Threads just bring the parts together, "loose" (to a point!) threads don't matter and tight threads can be harmful as was previously said. It's the mating surfaces of the shoulders that matter.

I had a customer that wanted me to see what I could do with his Savage FCP in 6.5 Creedmoor to improve accuracy. Combined with other work incl. a bedding job on his H.S. stock, I recut the receiver threads with the standard thread size piloted tap (not .010 over). Substantial cleanup of the threads, despite the mantra of "it'll just follow the existing ones" that's always shouted. The usual truing of the nut, receiver face, boltface, Holland's lug, etc. were also done.

Now, I can't say what contributed to the accuracy in the .2's with the factory barrel, and Hornady hunting ammo that resulted...but I can confidently say that's about as good as it gets from a rifle/barrel that's already known for solid factory accuracy- and it certainly was not detrimental.

For those that say it can't work, I'm from the "show me State" as my wife likes to say. Get the tooling, fire up the video camera and prove PTG and Manson are selling a system that doesn't work.

 

[butchlambert]

Discussed the truing tooling with both "Daves"...

For those that say a mandrel piloted tap cannot produce the same precision of single-pointing, please do what these guys did, and show different results to disprove them.

Buy the tooling, ream the receiver and re-cut the threads per instructions.
Set it up in whatever truing fixture you use to single-point on your lathe, pickup the threads precisely and turning the spindle by hand- see if you get any additional cleanup on the threads. They say, no difference.

I have read the arguments that nothing can produce the same level of precision as single-pointing and am unconvinced. Too often, we get into minutiae of the level " it won't show at the target".
Threads just bring the parts together, "loose" (to a point!) threads don't matter and tight threads can be harmful as was previously said. It's the mating surfaces of the shoulders that matter.

I had a customer that wanted me to see what I could do with his Savage FCP in 6.5 Creedmoor to improve accuracy. Combined with other work incl. a bedding job on his H.S. stock, I recut the receiver threads with the standard thread size piloted tap (not .010 over). Substantial cleanup of the threads, despite the mantra of "it'll just follow the existing ones" that's always shouted. The usual truing of the nut, receiver face, boltface, Holland's lug, etc. were also done.

Now, I can't say what contributed to the accuracy in the .2's with the factory barrel, and Hornady hunting ammo that resulted...but I can confidently say that's about as good as it gets from a rifle/barrel that's already known for solid factory accuracy- and it certainly was not detrimental.

For those that say it can't work, I'm from the "show me State" as my wife likes to say. Get the tooling, fire up the video camera and prove PTG and Manson are selling a system that doesn't work.

They say?

Now, I can't say what contributed to the accuracy in the .2's with the factory barrel

I think this says it all doesn't it.

 

[Ggmac]

Discussed the truing tooling with both "Daves"...

For those that say a mandrel piloted tap cannot produce the same precision of single-pointing, please do what these guys did, and show different results to disprove them.

Buy the tooling, ream the receiver and re-cut the threads per instructions.
Set it up in whatever truing fixture you use to single-point on your lathe, pickup the threads precisely and turning the spindle by hand- see if you get any additional cleanup on the threads. They say, no difference.

I have read the arguments that nothing can produce the same level of precision as single-pointing and am unconvinced. Too often, we get into minutiae of the level " it won't show at the target".
Threads just bring the parts together, "loose" (to a point!) threads don't matter and tight threads can be harmful as was previously said. It's the mating surfaces of the shoulders that matter.

I had a customer that wanted me to see what I could do with his Savage FCP in 6.5 Creedmoor to improve accuracy. Combined with other work incl. a bedding job on his H.S. stock, I recut the receiver threads with the standard thread size piloted tap (not .010 over). Substantial cleanup of the threads, despite the mantra of "it'll just follow the existing ones" that's always shouted. The usual truing of the nut, receiver face, boltface, Holland's lug, etc. were also done.

Now, I can't say what contributed to the accuracy in the .2's with the factory barrel, and Hornady hunting ammo that resulted...but I can confidently say that's about as good as it gets from a rifle/barrel that's already known for solid factory accuracy- and it certainly was not detrimental.

For those that say it can't work, I'm from the "show me State" as my wife likes to say. Get the tooling, fire up the video camera and prove PTG and Manson are selling a system that doesn't work.

Didn't you do that ! Oh shucks .